-- Start log: Wednesday, August 1, 2001 9:09:51 pm ASI Meeting Server time-- 

Greg says, "So, tonight (August 1, 2001) We are the Moon Society Leadership
Council." Greg says, "Only one member is missing, who just happens to be
the CHAIRMAN of this council. Let's all page Randall and see if he wakes
up." Scottyg says, "I was talking to him a little earlier and he was
planning to be here." Greg says, "Are we all paging him?"
Scottyg says, "I did."
Greg says, "We can make his computer ring like the Westminster chimes if we
keep it up." Greg says, "In the mean time, Scotty, are we broke yet?"
Scottyg says, "Nope."
Greg says, "Or, more to the point, can we afford to seed a conference if we
need to?" dcarson says, "how big a seed?"
Greg says, "I dunno; enough for a seedy conference." Scottyg says, "Depends
on the venue. Probably not Ceaser's." Scottyg says, "But we could let go of
a couple grand, or even 3." Greg says, "I don't recall how much money we
had to pay Caesars up front last year. I think it was $500." Greg says,
"So, what are ya'll doing the first week in November?" A crack of thunder
announces the arrival of Severy dcarson says, "nothing planned that I know
of" Greg says, "That might be a good date for me because either I'll be
stuck in oblivion or working on the new project." Severy says, "Sorry I'm
late, folks..." Greg says, "And it's after the Foundation conference in
October." Scottyg says, "Nothing definite. Going to Europe *some* time, but
don't have a schedule yet." Greg says, "Ah, the late Randall Severy!" Greg
says, "Oh goody! Then we can drive Scotty's schedule!" irs says, "I'm
pretty much booked for the rest of the decade, but give me a good reason,
and I'll see if I can squeeze it in." Greg says, "A good reason: Official
Moon Society conference." Greg says, "When is your wedding, Ian?" irs says,
"Let's do it somewhere near me, so that I can afford to go after I lose my
job." Greg says, "All the more reason for coming to Las Vegas, so you can
hunt for a job." irs says, "Wedding is last weekend in September. I've
already accepted a speaking engagement last weekend in October." Scottyg
says, "Since I just completed the front-end part of the Registration
system, now I can change it. :=)" irs says, "Make me an offer, Greg."
Greg says, "Me? I can't offer jobs to anybody!" Greg says, "And I sure as
heck wouldn't recommend my current employer." irs says, "Yeah, ain't that
the problem all around." irs says, "Would we be talking about a weekend
conference, or another one of those 'I gotta take time off to go' deals?"
Greg says, "I dunno. All our previous conferences were on the weekend."
Greg says, "Having a conference in Las Vegas on a weekend can be a little
tricky, but what the heck. We got several inquiries two years ago." dcarson
says, "could possibly organize it here, Bob and Margo would be a help, let
some of the eastern people have a close conf for once" Greg says, "I don't
want to consider the Hampton Inn since they screwed up so badly last time."
Greg says, "Uh uh. I gave everybody a chance to speak up for several weeks.
If we do this conference, we'll do it in Las Vegas." Greg says, "The point
being that I've already got folks on artemis-list talking about a
conference here, and two people already planning to attend whom we have not
met before." Scottyg says, "However, the bidding is open for NEXT year!"
Greg says, "And has been for months."
dcarson says, "OK will organize one "
Greg says, "I figure that's the first test. If folks can't get organized to
bid on the conference there's no hope they'll be able to organize the
conference." Scottyg says, "Dana, we need posters. Jennifer is down to 3 or
4." Greg says, "Um ... I think that's logical; though there might be a flaw
somewhere." dcarson says, "OK, will ship some"
Severy says, "I need to reconnect, my ISP connection is royally hosed at
the moment..." Greg says, "That sounds like a good sign, Scotty." Scottyg
says, "Yep, overall."
Severy will be right back.
Scottyg says, "Got six new registrations since the 27th." Greg says, "Wow!"
Severy has disconnected.
Greg says, "I wonder ... maybe it was the foundation's gig that reminded
people." Scottyg says, "But only a couple in the two weeks prior to that."
Greg says, "Are they new, or renewals?" Scottyg says, "Mostly new, but I
haven't checked them all. Been busy working on the Registration system to
make it easy for them." Greg says, "Pray that NASA sees the light. If we
can get the Steckler gig going, the Moon Society will become a household
word for students all over the country." Greg says, "The Moon Flag contest,
too." Severy has connected.
Severy says, "Much better!"
Scottyg says, "Ok, so you gonna put together a conference plan Greg?" Greg
says, "Still suffering from the Chinese invasion, Randall?" Greg says, "I
will unless you want, too, Scotty." Greg says, "want to, too, tutu."
Scottyg says, "Uh-uh."
Severy says, "Japanese..."
Greg says, "Ah, Chinese spies operating from Japan." Greg says, "At least
Dale was convinced that it was red Chinese trying to hack his machine."
Scottyg says, "I have two or three things...." Greg says, "Probably trying
to get into cable modems under the cloak of CodeRed." Severy says, "Dale
was getting hit from all over the pacific rim, so far I've been hammered
only from Japan" Greg says, "Go for it, Scotty."
Scottyg says, "As I mentioned a little while ago, the front end of the
Registration system is now finished (Or maybe I should say it does what I
planned for it to do.)" Scottyg says, "Except for a live tie-in to
CyberCash that looks like will haveto wait for a server upgrade." Scottyg
says, "I completed the interface to pull a member's data out of Team
Director today." Scottyg says, "Randall and I have tested it, but more beta
testing by you guys would be good." Scottyg says, "(You can go at least as
far as the checkout page without any entries being made in the database.)"
Scottyg [to try]: it out, just navigate from the JOIN button on the home
page. Scottyg says, "Item 2..."
Scottyg says, "Since we have activated the electronic subscription option,
we need to make the pdf versions available." Greg says, "Erm ... the "Join
Online" link seems to be missing from the /register/ page" Scottyg says, "I
got a members-only area set up today, and made an MMM directory, but the
index page doesn't link to anything." Greg says, "Yeah, PDF versions of the
MMM. Has anyone spoken to Peter Kokh about that?" Scottyg says, "Can
someone take the task of contacting Peter and arranging for him to upload
the MMM files and get the index pages linked in?" Greg says, "Randall, is
it possible to have WSD list documents in reverse alplhabetical order with
an index template?" Scottyg says, "Join Online link?"
Greg says, "Oh, it's this link at the bottom of the page that says Join the
Moon Society Now?" Scottyg says, "Yeah...I don't much care for the way that
is done. Suggestions welcome." Severy says, "Yes, Greg, the latest version
of WSD supports custom SQL queries to generate the list of documents in an
index page, so you can sort them any way you want" Greg says, "Oh, just
that we need to do something with this big blank white space, like move the
stuff below it up." Scottyg says, "Hey...When can I have custom SQL queries
for Team Director reports?" Greg says, "Lemme see if I can fix dat." Severy
says, "It's on the development list, Scotty ;-)" Scottyg says, "It happens
because the sidebar is longer than the content." Scottyg says, "S'ok...I
know how to find out everything Team Director knows now, so if I REALLY
want it, I can get there." irs will be right back.
Scottyg says, "Greg, I think that "Join the Moon Society" link should be a
button-like thingy." Scottyg says, "And should say "Click here to join the
Moon Society"" Scottyg says, "Maybe the title could be a link too." Scottyg
says, "For those who like top-of-the-page navigation." Greg says, "Hmmm ...
this was an easier fix than I expect. I just needed to remove the <br
clear=all> and the text no longer shuffled down below the picture." irs
says, "back"
Greg says, "The table that contains the sidebar has align="right" so text
should flow around it." Greg says, "We're not charging a premium for
delivering the newsletter to Canada?" Greg says, "There. Look at it now."
Greg says, "All I did was move the text up." dcarson says, "I think the
extra cost isn't worth the admin hassle" Greg says, "Do folks from other
countries get the $60 option on register2.php3?" Scottyg says, "Didn't make
any difference on my screen." Scottyg says, "Uh-huh. If you check
country=other on page 1, it changes the view on page 2." Greg says, "Yeah.
I can't check that ... or rather, perhaps I can if I tell it I'm in Sri
Lanka." Scottyg says, "Tell it anythink you want. Its a local copy until
you go past the checkout & credit card pages." Greg says, "yeah, it works."
Scottyg says, "anything too."
Greg says, "So the trick is not to click on "Charge my credit card?""
Scottyg says, "It also has quite a bit of data validation. You have to work
at it to get it to take a bogus credit card number." Greg says, "The trick
that fetches data from Team Director is great!" Scottyg says, "Actually,
you can click there too." Scottyg says, "It doesn't put anything in the
database until you confirm the credit card transaction." Greg says, "OK, so
the trick is DO NOT click on YES on this next screen." Scottyg says, "I've
been a little surprised at the number of people who have used the mail-in
form. (About 1/3 so far.)" Greg says, "I had to enter a real credit card
number to get past the door dragon." Scottyg says, "Right Greg."
Greg says, "I think it works, Scotty!"
Scottyg says, "Yep...Card Numbers follow some rules, and the program checks
them." Greg says, "As best I can tell, I exercised all the toys." Greg
says, "Ya gotta love this headline from New Scientist: "Space toilet key to
conquering new frontier"" Scottyg says, "There is still work to be done on
the back end. The registration system can't update Team Director yey, and I
need do create some reports for accounting, but the part the rest of the
world sees is done." irs says, "Gotta find that headline. Apparently, the
guest of honor at the convention I'm speaking at in October invented the
zero-g toilet (or so the program chair told me)." Scottyg says, "yey=yet,
do=to. *sigh*" Greg says, "Ian: http://www.moonsociety.org/ for the
headline. Of course." irs says, "Of course."
Scottyg says, "So...Can someone take on the task of getting the MMM's
online? I've been spending too much of my time on web work, and the
accounting is getting behind so I have to shift priorities for a while."
Greg says, "That was #2, Scotty. Did you say you have a #3?" Scottyg says,
"I think I did, but can't remember it just now." Greg says, "Sounds like an
*excellent* task for our W E B M A S T E R !" Scottyg says, "And who is
that?"
Greg says, "OK, ASI's webmaster, but since Jim Burk finked out on us ..."
Greg says, "Dana."
dcarson says, "yep sounds like mine"
Greg says, "So ... hey Dana! Can you bug Peter Kokh about getting the PDF
versions of the MMM on line?" dcarson says, "should I email Peter
directly?" dcarson says, "will do"
Greg says, "Yeah. I think he is planning to create PDF files directly. So
all he needs is a home for the on the Moon Society web." Greg says, "In a
private members areas that Scotty already set up." dcarson says, "OK that
should be easy"
Greg says, "Erm ... where is it, Scotty?" Greg says, "That's why I was
asking of WSD could do an index.template in reverse order, so the latest
could be at the top fo the list." Greg says, "of"
Greg says, "I think that would be a neat'n'easy way to present it." Greg
says, "Of course, alternatively, we could create a parallel MMM section in
http://www.asi.org/adb/l/, too." Greg says, "That might be even easier."
Greg says, "Scotty, are we paying the Lunar Reclamation Society only for
printed copies of MMM?" dcarson says, "links from both at least so people
can find them easily" Scottyg says, "IThe space I set up is at:" Scottyg
says, "http://www.moonsociety.org/members/MMM" Scottyg says, "its
restricted access to members only." Scottyg says, "Also, the index.html
page for /members needs to link to it." Greg says, "You log in with your
Team Director credetials?" Scottyg says, "And the MMM directory needs an
index. (I would let Team Director generate that.)" Greg says, "Where's the
door dragon? On /members/ or on /members/mmm/?" Scottyg says, "Yes Greg.
Same credentials on moonsociety as ASI" Scottyg says, "On /members Greg"
Greg says, "Now its http://www.moonsociety.org/members/mmm/." Scottyg says,
"The access control literally uses the same access control file as Team
Director on asi." Greg says, "I'm neurotic about using lowercase in file
names on Unix boxes." Scottyg says, "Heehee. Ok, no prob."
Greg says, "Yeah, I see the door dragon on .../mmm" Scottyg says, "I mostly
avoid upper case, but use it in special cases." Greg says, "I figure if I
always follow the same convention, then I never have to remember special
cases." Scottyg says, "The door Dragon shoul control everything in the
/members path." Greg says, "Oh! Yeah, I see its brother in /members/, boo"
Greg says, "too"
Greg says, "tutu"
Greg says, "tiu"
Scottyg says, "And only require a single auth for the entire structure."
Greg says, "Yup! And there it is!"
Greg says, "So we need a link to the MMM from /members/index.html" Greg
says, "And we need an index template to drive .../mmm/" Greg says, "Can you
do those, Dana?"
Greg says, "It might work to pilfer an index template from the MMM section
of asi.org" Scottyg says, "Yep. And and auto indexing page for MMM. Note I
changed the index page to .html, just to make you happy. :=) " Greg says,
"A thousand blessings upon your house." Greg says, "We must take care of
Greg's neurosis. Don't confuse the old man." Scottyg says, "There is an
index template available. Its used on the /organizing-documents directory."
dcarson says, "will do Scotty"
Greg says, "Hmm ... the MMM might need a special one with a note about PDF
and a link the the Adobe download area and all that neat stuff." Scottyg
says, "I remembered an item 3...related to item 2." Greg says, "Ah, item 3"
Greg says, "This is scary. Scotty always saves the scary stuff for last."
Scottyg says, "Peter wanted to store the pdf's in an area where other
non-Moon Society subscribers could have access. I don't know how to
accomplish that. I defer to Randall." dcarson says, "we update the
.htpasswd file from TeamDirector but leave other entries alone " Scottyg
says, "Well, I DO know how to accomplish it, but don't have that level of
access." dcarson says, "so we can have user/passwords for other people in
the file" dcarson says, "need to add a cgi to allow updates for that I
guess" Scottyg says, "Yeah Dana, and/or have a non-MS access file and cat
the two together." Scottyg says, "There is an .htpassword tool on
https://www.moonsociety.org that you could clone for Peter's people to
use." Severy says, "It would be better for the CGI that adds non-Team
Director users to also concatenate the two password files together" Severy
says, "The Team Director password file should not have other users in it,
it would make it possible to log in to Team Director but with no user
information or permissions" dcarson says, "OK makes sense"
Scottyg says, "Right Randall. The /members directory needs its own private
htpassword file, generated by cat'ing the Team Director access file and
Peter's file." dcarson says, "wonder if you can have 2 password files in
Apache, you can have access based on meeting any of the requirements"
Severy says, "Exactly"
dcarson says, "either vald user or from a given IP address for example"
Scottyg says, "Not as far as I know Dana, but I haven't worked with auth
very much." dcarson says, "I'll look at the doc and see" dcarson says,
"merging won't be hard though" Scottyg says, "The Apache docs don't say you
can, but I don't recall them saying you can't either." Scottyg says, "I
suspect pointers to two htpassword files will just pick one and ignore the
other." dcarson says, "probably but its worth an experiment" Scottyg says,
"Greg, do you want to set up some kind of group to work on recurring
billings?" Scottyg says, "(Re: The emails that went around a couple of
weeks ago)." Greg is thinking.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. Fortunately, this thinking will stop soon.
Scottyg says, "And I still have on my plate reaching a final agreement with
Peter about the transition from the old arragement to the new one on MMM
rates." Greg says, "Scotty, do you mean a bunch of folks to figure out how
to handle automated credit card billings?" Peace once again settles upon
the world. The thinking has stopped. Scottyg says, "It isn't so much the
billing, as the categories and usage of the funds." Greg says, "Oh, you
mean defining the process." Greg says, "And the rules."
Scottyg says, "All those IRS questions should have been a red flag about
that..." Greg says, "Y'know, we just might be able to get somebody to do
that." Severy has to reconnect again, *)$*)(@*$() ISPs! Michael arrives.
Severy will be right back.
Severy has disconnected.
Greg says, "Might, what an impatient ISP." Scottyg says, "Yep, that kind of
stuff. No sense wasting time creating a system until it has a purpose."
Michael says, "closed meeting?"
Scottyg says, "Sorta, Michael, but I don't think we would object to a
visitor." Greg says, "Not any more, Michael. You just volunteered to
organize a group of folks to figure out how we can handle recurrent
billings for donations." Severy has connected.
Michael says, "heheh..... I can tell you the way we do it in the LP...."
Greg says, "It was an idea that came up in reflection of all the donations
folks were talking about." Michael says, "we have the ability to handle
credit cards, right?" dcarson says, "ep"
dcarson says, "yep"
Greg says, "We need a process, a plan, a procedure, rules, definitions of
funds that the Treasurer has to set up and track." Michael says, "ahh... a
little more involved than what we did. ;-)" Greg says, "Oh, btw, you're
gonna LOVE the new registration system that Scotty created. At renewal
time, it can fetch all your data right from Team Director you don't have to
retype it all." Greg says, "Well, a simpler way to handle it would be good,
too." Greg says, "Just before you arrived, Scotty asked if we could set up
a team to work out these things and create the procedures and whatevers.
And I asked myself, "Self, who do I know who can think methodically and has
a good head for business??"" Greg says, "Then you arrived!"
dcarson says, "Greg spent too much time at NASA, overspecs R us" Michael
says, "we 'just did it'. You just have to make sure your accounting keeps
it seperate from things like dues. So create an account and then each
quarter you process all of the pending credit card donations. Cash and
check donations are just treated as income and you don't really have to do
anyting." Greg says, "Darn tootin', Dana."
Michael says, "bwahaha!1!"
Greg says, "I think the Great Gawud Moo, the god of compulsive
communicators, is moving in His mysterious ways." Michael says, "not a real
account as in teh bank. Just a revenue slot so you can track how much your
pledges are giving you...." Greg says, "Yeah. Numbers in the Treasurer's
books." Michael says, "who's the treasurer these days?" Greg says, "As long
as all the funds add up to the bank account, we're OK." Greg says, "Scotty."
Michael says, "what are we using to keep the books with?" Greg says, "I
think you met Scotty at the conference last year." Michael says, "yep..."
Michael says, "re-hi Scotty!"
Michael says, "if I remember rightly the only real issue is what you do
when someone doesn't live up to their pledge commitmment. Do you just
ignore the event. Do you remind them. Do you nag the hell out of 'em?"
dcarson says, "remind at least once I'd say, but no sense driving them away
if things have turned tight for them" Michael says, "those that pledge by
check or cash will forget * a lot*" Michael says, "that's what we do....."
Michael says, "those by credit card will forget that they're doing it.
which leads to things like credit cards coming back declined because the
owner closed the card and didn't realize they were still pledging with
it...." Michael says, "you really want people to forget that they're
pleding on a regular basis.... good old reliable/recurring revenue...."
Greg says, "We were thinking of setting up a system that would send
automated reminders to folks, along with instructions for how to turn it
off." Greg says, "I kind of like the honest of doing it that way. :)"
Michael says, "I wouldn't worry about that until/unless you get enough that
it starts driving Scotty crazy...." Greg says, "honesty, too"
Scottyg says, "I'm back. We use QuickBooks michael." Greg says, "Do
charge-backs cost us money?" Michael says, "people get it on their credit
card statements...." Greg says, "Yeah, but the credit card statements don't
tell you how to cancel it." Michael says, "they tell you who it came
from....." Greg says, "That's a good start."
Michael says, "just make it an easy to find item on the ASI/TMS main
page...." irs says, "We can't continually take money from people who've
pledged it; they have to renew regularly (US law--same problem with
memberships)." Greg says, "So, what we really need is a plan -- a written
procedure to follow." Michael says, "sure.... you just put some verbage to
that effect on their membership renewal...." Scottyg says, "Greg, it costs
us $0.30 to run a card approved or declined." Greg says, "How regularly,
Ian?"
Michael says, "do pledges on a quarterly basis...." Michael says, "i.e. you
add up montly pledges and don't actually charge then but once every 3
months...." irs says, "Each time you want to take money from the credit
card. That's why clubs offer multi-year memberhsips, paid up front.
Otherwise, they have to ask for money each year." Greg says, "I was
thinking of automated montly billing, to keep the increments small."
Scottyg says, "No more than monthly, no $ amounts below $10.00 (For credit
card.)" Michael says, "keep 'em large. eats into your bottom line by
charging all the time. You're goni to get $5 a month pledges. Not worth the
monthly accounting effort...." irs says, "Credit card issuing companies,
apparently, have a right to run regular withdrawals from a credit card, but
not other vendors." Scottyg says, "I think yearly pledges are ok. Many
organizations do yearly." Michael says, "sure... don't give the pledgers
lots of options though...." Michael says, "they'll use 'em and it gets
confusing and easy to screw up...." Scottyg says, "Yeah...Donations:One
<ftp://Yeah...Donations/One> time, quarterly, monthly" Michael says, "I
guess what I"m suggesting is: keep it extremely simple until/unless a)
demand gets to the point where you need a new system or b) the pledgers
demand changes or else they won't pledge" Scottyg says, "and Purposes:
Uncommitted, #1, #2, #2, etc." Michael says, "i.e. those are good problems
to have.... don't worry about fixing them unless they become issues...."
Scottyg says, "Purposes needs careful thought." Michael says, "Make it
discretionary for now....." Greg says, "There were some earmarked funds
that we wanted. Like the Moon Trophy. Remember that one?" Michael says,
"you really don't want to get into allowing people to designate nickels and
dimes to particular projects.... to much overhead..." Greg says, "I'm
thinking the opposite, Michael. People are much more likely to donate money
to support a particular project." Michael says, "You could say that the
pledges are for overhead and any one time donations over and above the
pledge can be designated designated projects." Greg says, "Yeah, that might
work."
irs says, "No, Greg's right. People are far more likely to pledge money for
a specific purpose than for a general 'to the treasury'. It may be
conscious or subconscious, but people are less likely to trsut donations to
a 'slush fund'." Michael says, "people that pledge know that they're doing
it to create a stable income structure for the organization. One time
donations are spure of the moment/special purposed type things." Scottyg
says, "Mmmmmm. I think a choice is better." Greg says, "Besides that, I
have an interest in finding out if this would work. I think it would be
neat to have a tax system where with your IRS form you can designate where
you want the government to spend your money." irs says, "Kit's a member of
the DAR. They had a pledge drive a while back to refurbish their
headquarters. But it was much easier for her to donate to 'rebuilding the
elevator' than a generic fund." Scottyg says, "This is an gut feel call,
but my gut agrees with Greg & Ian." Michael says, "either way is easy. Just
give them a limited set of choices.I.e. not open ended as in "Check Other
and enter your special project here:"" irs says, "Right, Michael. 'Here are
the projects we're working on right now that need your support.'" Greg
says, "Hey, I'm a preacher's kid. I have no talent for begging, but I've
seen all the tricks. :)" Michael says, "You'd get a few dollars each month
earmarked for He3 mining when its not even something we could do. ;-)"
Scottyg says, "Oh yes...Definitely a small set of choices. Perhaps five
tops." Greg says, "Of course the form would have a "general fund" area,
which is allocated at the board's discretion." Michael says, "yep...."
Scottyg says, "(The bookkeeper doesn't want to have to track more than
that!)" Michael says, "my purpose exactly, Scotty! ;-)" Greg says, "Unless
we could automate the frijoles out of this thing, but first we need a
write-up on what it is." dcarson says, "and taking a little off the top for
admin purposes is legit I'd think" Greg says, "More than legit, I think. If
we don't do that, we'll go bankrupt in a hurry." Michael says, "Unless
you've got something already in the works I wouldn't automate it just yet.
You've still gotta integrate it into QuickBooks and that's semi-manual
process anyway...." Scottyg says, "Legit, but probably not necessary until
we get a lot larger than we are now." irs will be right back.
Greg says, "It is my learned opinion that bankrupting the society is not in
the best interest of the members nor does it enable us to fulfill the
Society's non-profit purposes." Greg says, "Scotty, yeah, but i haven't
given up on getting a LOT larger than we are now." Scottyg says, "Michael,
I could add it into the Registration system so it generates ticklers. To me
and to the donors." Michael says, "sure.... can I just set it so it doesn't
bug me? Just charge me everynow and then and I'll just pay it and ignore
it..." Michael says, ";-)"
irs says, "back"
Greg says, "Michael, yeah, that's what I want to, as a member." Greg says,
"I'll betcha lots of folks would like that." Scottyg says, "Probably could
have some options about that." Greg says, "Rats. I can't find that note I
wrote about it. Anybody got it handy who could forward it to Michael?" irs
says, "They would indeed like that, but I do believe it would cause banking
problems. Heck, Scotty, check the agreement with the credit card processor:
it's probably got a clause requiring some sort of affirmative action on the
part of the credit card holder for each transaction." Scottyg says, "I was
trying to find it a bit ago. Let me look again." irs says, "I'd check my
agreement, but it's still buried in this on-going move." Scottyg says, "I
think there are specific rules about recurring billings." irs says, "Those
rules aren't the company being a pain in the ass; that's federal banking
law." Greg says, "Where would we find these rules?" irs says, "The
agreement we signed with the company that processes the credit card
payments. They, I assume, are a bank or a bank-like organization, which
answers to the feds." Michael says, "I doubt it..... "Sig on File" works
for just about everyone...." Michael says, "we process credit cards all the
time for people we've never got a signature from....." irs says, "Sure, you
can call in an order with a credit card, but you can't call in a 'bill my
card every month without notifying me.'" Michael says, "sure you can.... "
Michael says, "I do it for about 5 different organizations....." irs says,
"At any rate, we might find we do better by sending out irregular notices
that say 'we're working on this specific project, and looking for pledges
to help. Interested?' That's why companies send out multiple
solicitations." Michael says, "National LP, State LP and local...." irs
says, "LP?"
Michael says, "Libertarian Party...."
irs says, "No notices from them that they'll be taking money next month?"
Michael says, "nope.... you just state in the pledge thing that you want to
donate x amount of money every month. You just stick a little notice on
there that "hey, we don't actually bill every month. Just quarterly so
you'll see your pledge amount times 3 only 4 times a year"." irs says,
"That was an on-going problem with American Mensa: got to rebill members
yearly. In Britain, they can accept that 'keep taking money until I say
stop', and their membership retention rate is FAR higher." Michael says,
"you can do that here.... nothing illegal about it...." Scottyg says, "I
think there is a time limit. Affirative action is required periodically."
irs says, "My experience says otherwise, and I'd like a ruling from the cc
company before we do it." Scottyg says, "I'll read our Merchant Account
agreement." irs says, "I'd read mine if it were accessible. Thanks, Scotty.
If I'm wrong, or the law has changed, that'd be great; but I fear I'm not
in this case." Arthur Smith arrives.
Greg says, "I just invited Arthur Smith to join us." Greg says, "And there
he is!"
Scottyg says, "Hi Arthur!"
Arthur_Smith says, "Hi!"
Arthur_Smith says, "Just admiring the, uh, room." Greg says, "Heh."
irs says, "I was about to beg off because of this job thing in the early
morning. Would it be terribly rude for me to escape in the middle of the
conversation?" Scottyg says, "Yes, but we'll forgive you." Greg says, "Go
to bed, Ian! It's after 11:00!" irs says, "Sorry, but thanks. See y'all
next time." Greg says, "(Ian is in New York, y'see.)" irs has disconnected.
Scottyg says, "G'nite Ian!"
Scottyg says, "Greg, I found the emails (About 5 or maybe 6)" Greg says,
"Arthur, now you know what we do when nobody is looking. Administrivia.
Squared." Scottyg says, "Michael, are you Mealling?" Michael says, "yep...."
Greg says, "Oops. I shoulda mentioned that." Scottyg says, "Greg, Michael
already got most of these." dcarson says, "might be able to do what I've
seen PBS do, pledge $120 at $10 a month, so they are pledging a known
amount but paying less per billing" Greg says, "We need an @finger or
something in the MOO that will tell you who somebody is." dcarson says, "wh
have that Greg"
Scottyg says, "There is one."
Greg says, "That sounds like a workable solution, Dana." dcarson says,
"@whois"
Greg says, "Well, sonofagun!"
dcarson says, "try @whois greg"
Arthur_Smith says, "Don't know if this has been raised before, but when I
signed up for NSS they almost directed you to various extra donation levels
to put on your credit card right there and then." Greg says, "Oh boy! A new
toy!"
Greg says, "And nobody gripes about it?" Scottyg says, "We politely give
yoou a choice on the same page as membership registration." Arthur_Smith
says, "renewals too?"
The housekeeper arrives to cart irs off to bed. Scottyg says,
"Unfortunately, we have to include a disclaimer about tax deductions since
our 501c3 application is still pending." dcarson says, "of course renewels
also" Greg says, "Arthur, yes. The new registration is just now on line. If
you follow the "Join us!" link from the main page at
http://www.moonsociety.org/ you can play with it. As long as you don't
click on the "Yes" button on the final charge-my-card stage, it's all
local." Scottyg says, "Yeah, renewals too. Go into the registration system
using the JOIN button off the home page. You can safely go as far as the
checkout page withou any information being recorded." Greg says, "I really
like the feature where it can query Team Director for your address and
stuff." Greg says, "Heh. Great midns."
Greg says, "minds."
Scottyg says, "BTW - Thai as a VERY new feature. (On-line as of about noon
today.)" Greg says, "Yeah. Cool feature. Beats anything from Microsoft."
Scottyg says, "And I did it all with php. Yank!" Greg says, "Ouch!"
Arthur_Smith says, "Anybody want to recap other ideas that have come up?"
Greg says, "Well, we inflicted upon Michael the action item to work up the
Grand Plan for what we need to do." Scottyg says, "well, briefly..."
Michael says, "cooooll.... loaded my data and got it all right even...."
Scottyg says, "Offer one-time, quarterly, or monthly billing options."
Michael says, "It'll be a few days. I'm heading to London on Saturday so it
may be a week or so...." Scottyg says, "And uncommitted plus a small number
of specific purposes you can allocate to." Scottyg says, "We suspect that
our Merchant Account will require reaffirmation from time-to-time, so the
pledge will probably cover a time span." Michael would be surpised if it
had that in there, but then again, I've never read a merchant
aggreement...... Scottyg says, "Its about 10 pages, and I remember some
specific rules about recurring billings & installment plans." Arthur_Smith
says, "Hmmm, NSS seems to have changed their website, including
registration page" Michael says, "it might be a state reg thing too....."
Scottyg says, "But no details, and the agreement isn't handy and I can't
read fast enough to do us any good tonight." Arthur_Smith says, "If I
recall correctly, they had various cute labels for $100, $1000 etc.
donation levels." Greg says, "Hmm ... if NSS removed those toys, there
might have been a reason for them." Scottyg says, "Yeah, that is common
throughout the non-profit arena." Greg says, "Scotty, is our Merchant
Account agreement available on line somewhere?" Greg says, "Michael will
want to look at that." Scottyg says, "Ummm....Might be. Its with Nova
Information Systems." Scottyg says, "But it may vary from case to case."
Scottyg says, "(Not too much - Its pre-printed.)" Scottyg says, "Oh, and
there are actually three agreements: VISA/MASTERCARD, DISCOVER, & AMEX"
Greg says, "Let's see ... http://www.novainfo.com/ is the top of the heap."
Arthur_Smith says, "Don't forget credit cards have expiry dates" Greg says,
"Good point, Arthur."
Greg says, "I remember that I used to have recurring billing with my ISP (
io.com); and they'd send advanced warnings about needing a new credit card
registration as the expiration data approached." Michael says, "yep...."
Arthur_Smith says, "So would Nova take care of that, or do we have to
contact and get the new numbers?" Greg says, "I think we'd have to do the
contact." Michael says, "you have to contact the customer...." Greg says,
"Nova just processes the credit cards." Greg says, "We're the interface
with the /v/i/c/t/i/m/ customer." Michael says, "palm did that for me for a
while... I'd get email once a year saying "hey, give us your new expiration
date!"" Michael says, "not a very information packed web site...." Greg
says, "I think once Michael has the process defined, we might be able to
come up lots of schemes for automating these things." Greg says, "That's
easy for me to say since I don't know BEANS about the tools used to do the
automation." Scottyg says, "I just read over the part of the Discover
agreement covering recurring payment plans." Scottyg says, "The
requirements are:"
Scottyg says, "You must have the cardmember's name, address, and Card
Account number...." Scottyg says, "A writeen agreement specifying amount of
each installment, timing or frequency of payments..." Scottyg says, "Length
of time over which cardmember permits you to bill his card..." Michael
says, "and that last one means they have to actually see the terms and
ascent to them. it doesn't need an actual hand written signature...."
Scottyg says, "Our merchant number..."
Scottyg says, "Card expiration date..." Scottyg says, "and Total dollar
amount of the transaction." Scottyg says, "The "written agreement" can be
in electronic form." Greg says, "So we would want the form to have an end
date on it. And an algorithm that checks to make sure the end date is not
after the expiry date." Michael says, "that would be valid. You'd just have
to contac the customer to get the new expiry date....." Scottyg says, "Yep.
We also must provide sales data (A sales receipt) that provides to the
customer:" Scottyg says, "Description of Transaction...." Michael says, "I
gotta head to bed guys. Can someone send me a transcript of this meeting so
I'm clear on what my deliverable is?" Scottyg says, "Toll free number to
call for customer service regarding the transaction. (OOPS!)" Greg says,
"Ah. That's our chance to email a note telling folks what we have done and
provide a link to the web resource where they can turn it off if they want
to." Scottyg says, "And some stuff that goes to Discover." Greg says,
"Dana, can you rescue the transcript from this part of the meeting and send
it to Michael?" dcarson says, "sure"
Michael says, "cool. I'll try and work on it while I'm sitting in one of
hte many pubs in London. ;-)" dcarson says, "the netsol address OK?"
Michael says, "actually: michael@neonym.net" Michael says, "Poul Anderson
died?!"
dcarson says, "yep this morning, cancer" Scottyg says, "Nova's rules are a
little simpler. Mostly there must be a written agreement authorizing the
arrangement." Michael says, "and Greg Bear is his son-in-law?" Greg says,
"That would be great, Michael! When do you go to London?" Greg says, "Is
Nova a credit card?"
Greg says, "I thought it was a stellar phenomenon." Greg says, "And a TV
show."
Michael says, "Saturday afternoon. I'll be htere until the 15th...."
dcarson says, "there is an email address to send sympathies to" Michael
says, "ok, its quarter till midnight... time for sleep....." Greg says,
"g'night, Michael!"
Michael says, "g'nite guys... .see you regulars tomorrow morning...."
Michael goes home.
Greg says, "Yeah, come to think of it, I need to hit the rack pretty quick
too." dcarson says, "seems like a good time to stop" dcarson says, "will
stop recorder and email to michael" Arthur_Smith says, "Looks like I got
off easy here..."

-- End log: Wednesday, August 1, 2001 11:46:16 pm ASI Meeting Server time--