-- Start log: Wednesday, September 1, 2004 9:02:35 pm ASI Meeting Server time --

Severy switches places with Severy-6
MikeD says, "Steve said he'd be back around 8pm when he gets home" Greg-2
says, "Bruce popped in and said to let him know if we want a repot on the
Mars Homestead Project." Nancy-1 says, "Good evening, all!"
Greg-2 says, "His clone seems to be waiting in the hallway." kokhmmm has
arrived.
Greg-2 says, "Hail to the Chief!"
kokhmmm says, "Hi, gang!"
garygray says, "Hi Peter!"
kokhmmm says, "Bruce Mackenzie may be joining us." MikeD says, "he's
waiting in the wings" Greg-2 says, "Peter, yes. His clone seems to be
sitting in the hallway." kokhmmm reads the meeting agenda
Greg-2 says, "I think we should welcome him in unless he's really out there
just to enjoy the paintings on the wall." MikeD says, "what paintings?"
Greg-2 says, "Erm... I'll get back to you that, Mike." kokhmmm says, "You
don't see them, Mike?" kokhmmm says, "You may need a new client!" MikeD
says, "no, but then i suffer from virtual myopia" Greg-2 says, "Heh. We may
soon have a virtual world where you really *can* see paintings! :)" Greg-2
says, "(But that's way off-topic for tonight.)" MikeD says, "prove it isn't
virtual already" Greg-2 says, "Mike, it's the other part that's unique --
the lack of paintings." SJ has arrived.
kokhmmm says, "Greg, can you tell if Bruce is connected? He probably will
appear as BAM or bam." Greg-2 says, "Peter, he appears to be connected." SJ
says, "bam-3, idle 8 mins, is in Commons." Severy-6 says, "Yes, Bruce is
still connect" Severy-6 says, "connected, rather"
kokhmmm says, "Can you tell him how to find us?" MikeD says, "he already
knows"
Greg-2 says, "He might be watching his bam-3 clone." MikeD says, "just tell
him to come in"
Greg-2 says, "I'll go get him. BRB."
Greg-2 goes South.
garygray says, "Who are we still missing from the Council!" kokhmmm says,
"John is not here. Nor Michael." Arthur arrives.
Arthur says, "Hi all!"
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Arthur. "
garygray says, "Hi Arthur!"
bam-3 has arrived.
bam-3 says, "hi, this is Bruce Mackenzie, BMackenzie@alum.mit.edu,
(781)944-7027, most of you know me already from first Moon Society
conference in Vegas or elsewhere" Severy-6 says, "Hi, Bruce!"
kokhmmm says, "So, Arthur, if the NSS election results are set aside, that
may be their loss, but our gain! Just kidding. I know you'll find other
ways to help NSS." Arthur says, "Yup :-)"
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Bruce."
Arthur says, "And Moon Society too ..." SJ missed some politics. Set aside?
kokhmmm says, "I had told everyone about the Mars Habitat Project." Arthur
says, "By the way, can we start sending hate mail to Robert Zubrin? I'm
pretty upset with this attack on the Aldridge folks - and Spudis in
particular..." kokhmmm says, "Hate mail is counterproductive." Arthur says,
"Yup. I called Paul today about it - sounds like he's gotten some nasty
letters." kokhmmm says, "Bruce wants to tell you in what way he is open to
help from us and wht way not." garygray says, "Some people never grow up!"
MikeD says, "there's no law that says people have ot" kokhmmm says,
"Bruce's time is limited. So let's not get off topic. Thanks." john-r
arrives.
john-r says, "evening"
bam-3 says, "not sure what to say"
garygray says, "Hi John!"
bam-3 says, "we had a kickoff planning meeting with 10 people, to plan the
basic requirements, materials, preliminary design" john-r says, "Hi Gary"
kokhmmm says, "I had thought that the Mars Habitat Project, e\ven if it
remains essentially a Mars Society one, will learn much that will apply to
our situation also." bam-3 says, "of special interest is we are collecting
possible projects for small groups and individuals, " MikeD-1 arrives.
MikeD leaves.
kokhmmm says, "That's why, I thought it would be good for us to
participate." bam-3 [to prototype]: equipment or to select existing
equipment bam-3 says, "some of these project would be unique to Mars, but
many in common with Luna & asteroids" kokhmmm says, "The team consists of
experts in different fields, Bruce?" bam-3 says, "this is not intended to
be a membership organization, but instead a project-oriented, hopefull with
contributions from many organizations" bam-3 says, "yes, we specifically
recruited people with certain backgrounds for the core-programming team"
bam-3 says, "but we still have some gaps and could also use extra help "
bam-3 says, "so if some members can put in significant time, and have
professional level experience, we can still use more help on that team"
bam-3 says, "but also a general-discussion e-list, to start soon, fairly
free topics" garygray says, "What are some of the gaps or expertise you
need, Bruce!" bam-3 says, "we have some initial start up funding, for very
limited travel, etc, but could really use more financial support and
in-kind corporate donations when we get to the prototyping projects" bam-3
says, "also limited matching funds are available,..." bam-3 says,
"expertise..."
bam-3 says, "IT, sensors, extra help with mechanical engineering, plastics"
bam-3 says, "plenty of people say they have web or writing experience, but
hard to get them involved" kokhmmm says, "Bruce, I just emailed you Steve
Gillett's edress. His expertise is geology, but he's also into nanotech
processing of elements present only in traces." bam-3 says, "sorry, my list
of expertise is not handy right now... I actually think we need more people
in every area, but Mark Homnick is the team leader, and he wants to keep it
to a manageable number of people" bam-3 says, "are there specific
questions?" kokhmmm says, "Bruce, do you plan, eventually to acknowledge
support and endorsement of the project by other organizations?" bam-3 says,
"Peter said he suggested an announcement encouraging people to participate,
great" bam-3 says, "yes, we will have a list of co-sponsoring
organizations, donors, team members, advisors, etc," kokhmmm says, "Bruce,
that will be in the September MMM, but I plan to send out email also."
bam-3 says, "but I personally do not want to announce those until we have a
few sponsors" Arthur says, "From the website, there's a request for
"Instrumentation and Control, and Information Technology expertise"" bam-3
says, "NSS in the form of George Whitesides (ED) is very enthusasitic, but
busy now" SJ says, "Sounds like a "wish list" for both skills and donations
needs to be posted somewhere, if it's not already . . . and we could point
our members at it." kokhmmm says, "I can understand that, Bruce. We can be
patient about that, so long as we know it's okay to spread the word to our
members." bam-3 says, "we hesitats posting a wish list for key skills,
because we don't want to embarass someone by turning them down if they are
partly qualified, but yes, we should announce it..." kokhmmm says, "Bruce
showed me this project in Oklahoma City, in May, but I believe he had
already emailed me about it earlier." bam-3 says, "I have mentioned this to
Peter & Randall,... we plan to insist that companies offering in-kind
donations would not get full recognition as a co-sponsor, unless they also
gave a little cash, ... we want to say that "all full co-sponsors" listed
on the web have given some cash, ... " kokhmmm says, "But it wasn't until
Chicago, the Mars Convention, that I really took a good look at what he was
proposing to do. It fits our needs as well." bam-3 says, "so I must ask you
folks for some donation, or some help with fund raising so that we can make
that statement to future donors" kokhmmm says, "Bruce, what's the minimum
cash you would call significant?" SJ says, "Better to embarrass someone
early than to fire them afterward - and lots of volunteer efforts collapse
because nobody has the courage to fire the deadwood. Still, there are ways
to say "No thanks" without hurting feelings too badly. Advisory committees,
for instance :-)" bam-3 says, "in Oklahoma in May, it was just a few
people's work, " Arthur says, "I have to say, though I'm mad at Zubrin
right now, I've seen a recent document of his proposing stuff similar to
Mars direct for the Moon, using lunar resources... if we can actually share
some of the resource utilization engineering, that would be great!" bam-3
says, "in Chicago in August, we had had the kickoff meeting and 10 key
people were starting" bam-3 says, "and better graphics"
bam-3 says, "yes on Zubrin, you may note my old masonry habitats in
Zubrin's first book, made on site." bam-3 says, "my guess is we should find
fiberglass and plastics to be the most ecomomical to make" garygray says,
"I also saw the presentation on the Project at the Mars Conference. I think
particpation by the Moon Society would be good!" kokhmmm says, "I will have
something to say about Zubrin's vision, and why I think, on second glance,
it might be worth supporting as far as the government involvement goes. "
bam-3 says, "let me know if you have a Lunar fiberglass expert who wants to
tackle mars minerals" Arthur says, "uh-oh, Peter's been brainwashed too
:-)" kokhmmm says, "Not, so, Arthur!"
Arthur says, "The question to me is how much of the engineering relies on
abundant carbon. Not that it's terribly abundant on Mars, but definitely
more available than on the Moon." bam-3 says, "my personal suggestion is
'one-way to mars', and send repair equipement, etc, but that is not
politically correct for the western culture" kokhmmm says, "It's all about
strategy!" bam-3 says, "plastics may not be easy, but they should be
'straightforward' to make from CO2 on Mars" kokhmmm says, "Yes, I'm a "one
way" advocate also, and soo is RZ to judge by his novel." bam-3 says, "the
atmosphere is much more predicatable composition than the regolith... but I
digress" Arthur says, "'s ok, I was in the august presence of Sean O'Keefe
and Tom DeLay yesterday evening (NYC "Space Jam") - I think I survived
unharmed..." kokhmmm says, "We have to determine which plastic feedstocks
are easiest to make from the atmosphere. ethylene and propylene and the
polymers based on them would seem to most straightforward." bam-3 says, "we
need to expand our management team, also, currently: Mark Homnick, from
Intel & Florida; Joe Palaia, MIT, nuclear; Gary Fisher, Penns. & Greenhab;
" dcarson arrives.
dcarson says, "helo"
bam-3 says, "also Jim Burk (remember him?) - web; Georgi Petrov, Chicago,
just did thesis on topic" SJ says, "Evening, Dana."
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Dana."
dcarson reads the meeting agenda
bam-3 says, "hi Dana, ... Mars Homestead." SJ reads the meeting agenda
garygray says, "Hi Dana We are talking about the MarsHome concepts
project!" bam-3 says, "also Rudy Brehens,
greenhouse/hydroponicks/synth-fuel" kokhmmm says, "So Bruce, at this time
you approve of me advertising the project to our members?" bam-3 says,
"certainly, go ahead and advertise" Arthur reads the meeting agenda
bam-3 says, "especially the general-discussion e-list" kokhmmm says, "With
Bruces's blessing, I ask for approval by the Leadership. Does this require
a Board vote?" bam-3 says, "do you want to sign up as a co-sponsor? some
help with funding would be nice, but we would consider with out it" bam-3
says, "note CyberTeams is providing service (thanks), and Randall has
positions in both, " kokhmmm says, "Bruce, should I ask those who think
they have relevant expertise to contact you or Joe?" SJ says, "If we're
going to encourage our members to participate, I think we certainly want to
be listed as a co-sponsor - would look funny to members if we didn't, no?"
bam-3 says, "yes, we can use advice in almost every engineering area,"
bam-3 says, "but do not want to emphasize that spaces are open in the
programming team," kokhmmm says, "Steve, Bruce is willing to list us as a
cosponsor, -once- there are others aboard also." bam-3 says, "we would
rather be selective, but everyone is welcome on the e-list" bam-3 says,
"negeotiable"
bam-3 says, "and not up to just me, 4 of us decide currently" garygray
says, "Bruce, you said, I thinj, that co-sponsors contribute money too, In
ball park term, hiw big a contribution we are talking about?" bam-3 says,
"also, please suggest manangement advisors, if someone is appropriate &
willing" bam-3 says, "hard question..."
bam-3 says, "currently we have no figure, we just want to be able to tell a
company that to be listed as a full co-sponsor, ... all others have give
something financial" bam-3 says, "it could be help fundraising, at a later
date, but not infinitely far off" bam-3 says, "I think we can get NSS to
cosponsor, George Whitesides and I have been trying to find a time to
discuss it " garygray says, "Okay, I think the Moon Society would benefit
from a co-sponsorship!" bam-3 says, "I am not using my NSS BoD position to
get sponsorship, letting it fly on its own merits" bam-3 says, "let me know
if you want me to step out" kokhmmm says, "No need, Bruce."
SJ nods. I will be silent on the issue of how much we should contribute, as
I do not yet have any data at all on our cash position OR cash flow. (Would
like to get that sometime soon . . .) Greg-2 arrives amidst thundering
applause. bam-3 says, "lots of people here, "
bam-3 says, "obviously, this is a very early project, very risky, but I
think it has a very good chance of succeeding, due to good people and a
little start up money already" kokhmmm says, "Greg, do we need Board
approval to proceed with informing our members of this opportunity to
support a project from which we have much to gain?" Severy-6 says, "I don't
think we need Board approval, Peter" bam-3 says, "oh, a warning, we are
aiming for a full scale research base, to integrate and demo equipment,
test, etc, and also be open to public like a 'living history' community,...
it has some similarity to Leto" bam-3 says, "so please don't think we are
stealing Leto, lots of people have those ideas" Severy-6 says, "As long as
no one on the board objects, I would suggest that you do whatever is
necessary to move forward, Peter" kokhmmm says, "Similarity to LETO is all
the more reason for us to help in any way we can.. I'd think." garygray
says, "Peter, let me know if I can help!" Greg-2 says, "Yup. It dont see
that this is a policy decision so I don't think it would need to come under
the purview of the board of directors." bam-3 says, "if it is important,
you can list it as a co-sponsored project on the Moon web site, more or
less immediately. " kokhmmm says, "Okay, I'll proceed. Thanks, Bruce."
kokhmmm says, "John, I need to talk to you about some details of putting
this on the web site. We can do that separately." kokhmmm says, "Thanks,
Bruce. Randall we can move to the next item on the agenda." john-r says,
"no objections from me for advertising and promotting/ If and we help fund,
then we need some more discussion?" kokhmmm says, "Of course, John!"
bam-3 says, "thanks, I will be in touch with Peter & Randall, -Bruce -
BMackenzie@alum.mit.edu" john-r says, "Ok Peter, on web talk- may have to
be tormorrow night" Severy-6 says, "Thanks, Bruce!"
kokhmmm says, "Just let me know the time." john-r says, "Thanks Bruce"
bam-3 says, "sure, go on to next topic" Severy-6 says, "Ok, next up on the
agenda is Membership Services, what's the latest, Greg and Nancy?" bam-3
says, "thank you folks."
john-r says, "Peter i have 8:56 for time now, are you the same?" MikeD-1
says, "thanks Bruce"
kokhmmm says, "Thank you! Bruce!"
Nancy-1 says, "There were two renews and one new membership since the last
meeting." kokhmmm says, "Yes, John (8:58)"
kokhmmm says, "So what time tomorrow?"
Severy-6 says, "Any progress on snail-mail renewal notices? :-(" MikeD-1
says, "any way of knowing where the new member heard of us?" Greg-2 says,
"Randall, nope."
kokhmmm says, "Mike, it would be nice if we had that question on the
registration form." john-r says, "Thursday 8:30"
john-r says, "pm"
kokhmmm says, "WSD says we are down to 180as of 8/25/04 so it's getting to
be turniquet time." MikeD-1 says, "yes, that's more a Dana or Scotty task
as I recall, I wasn't involved in creating that form" Severy-6 says, "Who
was the new member, Nancy?" Greg-2 says, "Mike, we could add that question
to the sign-up form." Nancy-1 says, "I don't know, Randall. Missy didn't
send that information with her report." Severy-6 says, "Ok, because I was
looking at the registrations to see if anyone had responded to our Google
ad, and one registration was listed as "new" but was actually an existing
member" kokhmmm says, "Mike, there are time honored ways to track such
things. Each new form generated for a specific occasion (ISDC, a SF con,
and exhibit) could list a "department #) on the line after our name and
before our address. Then we know where the person got the form." dcarson
says, "I'm going to run off a batch for worldcon tomorrow, I'll add some
numbr before I copy them" MikeD-1 says, "the google ads don't seem to have
helped much yet" kokhmmm says, "I will be sending the word out about the
Mars Habitat Project to all members, not just current, and intend to
continue sending reports to *all* in hopes of encouraging some to rejoin,
others to renew." kokhmmm says, "Great, Dana. It will be interesting to
track those." Greg-2 says, "Randall, where was that member designated at
"new"?" Severy-6 says, "In the Moon Society Registrations database"
Severy-6 says, "Anything to cover on "Additional Registration Options"
tonight?" kokhmmm says, "No, Randall. I'll have more to discuss on
registration options in coming meetings, however." Nancy-1 says, "Missy
said there was no membership number, and he came in as a "New Member". If
they don't give membership number how is she to know? His name was David
Heroux." kokhmmm says, "Anyway, we need Scotty in on that discussion."
Severy-6 says, "I found an existing David Heroux already in the database"
Severy-6 says, "Ok, anything on Renewal Incentives tonight?" bam-3 says,
"Dana [off-topic] if that is Worldcon in Boston, let me know, I may be
there Friday" bam-3 says, "anyway a connection with Mars Homestead project
could help with renewals? " Greg-2 says, "Randall, if there's no membership
number, how do you know that a new registration is actually a renewal?"
dcarson says, "yep, I'm here at the Marriott" bam-3 says, "want to propose
join NSS - Moon Soc. membership ? ... could be touchy, but..." Severy-6
says, "By finding the member in the database, Greg" kokhmmm says, "Bruce,
explain!"
Greg-2 says, "So we need to search all new registrations to see if they
match an existing name in the database?" Severy-6 says, "If you don't
you'll end up with duplicate member records in the database" kokhmmm says,
"Do you mean a special rate for both? We'd have to work that out with
George, and right now may not be a good time." Severy-6 says, "When an
existing member renews by filling out the form as a new member, there's no
easy way to figure that out automatically, I'm struggling with that issue
right now working on NSS registration processing" Greg-2 says, "Maybe a
select * from where name is like blah to see if there's a similar match."
kokhmmm says, "If the person is registering with a new address, it would be
very hard to confirm it is the same person unless his/her eddress remains
the same." Severy-6 says, "The "similar" part still needs to be a human
judgement call" Greg-2 says, "Scotty has an agorithm that works pretty well
in the other database. Let's discuss that off line." Severy-6 says, "Ok"
kokhmmm says, "We all get duplicate junk mailings, sometimes simply because
one is all in upper case, or has Street abbreviated, the other listing
not." Severy-6 says, "There are few enough Moon Society members that in
this case it was very easy to just look at the list of members and find a
match visually" kokhmmm says, "Okay, offline. But so far no hardcopy
renewal notices?" Severy-6 says, "Anything on Renewal Incentives for
tonight?" kokhmmm says, "I think I should resume sending letters to
expiring Moon Society hardcopy subscribers." Severy-6 says, "Greg, any way
you can set a target date for getting the hardcopy renewal notices going?"
Greg-2 says, "I tried that once, Randall, without much success. I'm totally
swamped right now." Greg-2 says, "It wouldn't break my heart if someone
else who knows how to set up a mail/merge file wants to do that." kokhmmm
says, "Just so you all know, with the August issue, we are sending out 7
complementary copies, some to Ian, some to Dana" MikeD-1 says, "is James
subscribed for the hard copy Peter?" kokhmmm says, "Otherwise, we would be
7 shy of 200 domestic bulk mail copies. So renewals is an important issue.
Can't stress that enough." Severy-6 says, "Besides setting up the
mail/merge file, Greg, the bulk of the effort I think is setting everything
up for Missy to use" kokhmmm says, "I'llcheck, What's the last name,again?"
MikeD-1 says, "Gholston"
Greg-2 says, "Randall, yup."
MikeD-1 says, "I think we need to make the PDF version a non option for
North America, or is that already the case" kokhmmm says, "No, he is not.
Must be electronic." MikeD-1 says, "I'll bug him about it"
garygray says, "Peter, I think renewals with expiring MMM subscriptions
would be good.!" Severy-6 says, "Anything on Membership
Recruiting/Acquisition tonight?" Greg-2 says, "I think an instruction sheet
that tells how to do a database query and how to use the file with a
mail/merge setup would do it. She also needs some written instructions
about when to mail the renewal notcies and how to avoid duplicates."
kokhmmm says, "Just that what I am concentrating on, collaborations,
projects, chapters, outposts should all have a bearing in turning things
around." kokhmmm says, "I mailed to Scotty a new hardcopy subscription from
France. Hope to get more from the Mars Convention." Severy-6 says, "Ok,
anything more on any Membership Services topic tonight?" Severy-6 says,
"FYI, James just connected to The Commons" Severy-6 says, "Ok, moving on in
the agenda...." Severy-6 says, "Did we take care of everything regarding
our illustrious "President Emeritus" last meeting? I've lost track..."
kokhmmm says, "Yes, it's a done deal, Randall." Severy-6 says, "Ok, I'll
remove it from the agenda for next time" Severy-6 says, "So, moving on to
"Creation of an Executive Committee"" kokhmmm says, "On the Executive
Committe idea. Did you all get a chance to read the letter I sent out
yesterday?" SJ read.
john-r says, "i have read it once"
MikeD-1 says, "not really Peter, this was back to school day" dcarson says,
"nope I'm on the road"
kokhmmm says, "This is not about shifting power, but about making sure that
the Society can act with real speed when needed. How we do this does not
matter to me. " MikeD-1 says, "receiving stuff like that the day before the
meeting is not conducive to reading it in time" kokhmmm says, "I am not
thinking of a standing committee. " kokhmmm says, "Just some sort of ad hoc
mechanism that can be activated when there is no time to wait for the next
MOO meeting, or to call a special Board meeting. Whatever mechanism we
decide on should be created by the board and responsible to the board. I
don't care about the details." john-r says, "Mike- thats one reason why
some groups use the the 2 week notice" kokhmmm says, "I did suggest that
the composition might include the President, the Chairman of the Board, and
the Treasurer, with the Secretary auditing and reporting to the Board. But
I'm totally open to other ideas." kokhmmm says, "My letter addresses
occasions when the 2 week notice is too long a wait. The occasions when we
need to act more swiftly should be rare. " Greg-2 says, "Peter, my main
worry is that even if we don't intend this Executive Committee to usurp the
elected board, it will." kokhmmm says, "We may never need such a mechanism.
But it's better to have it, than not need it, than need it and not have
it." Greg-2 says, "And I still can't think of a plausible situation where
such emergency power would be needed. It's not like we're likely to suffer
a terrorist attack." garygray says, "Right now there us only one person
who, by himself, can call a quick meeting!" kokhmmm says, "Only if it is a
standing committee, Greg. It would have no authority except when called
into activity for a special occasion, and then only if all the other ways
of getting the Board to meet were exhausted." Greg-2 says, "In other words,
I'm thinking it's better to not have so we don't have to worry about it,
than to have something we don't need and do have to worry about." john-r
says, "talk about the 2 extreames :) some one weants to give a lot of money
and then we move to terriosts.." kokhmmm says, "I ask you to read the
letter I sent yesterday. I'll accept the consensuc decision. I am not
interested in concentrating power." kokhmmm says, "My letter gives some
examples of situations that could come up that we could not presently
handle." SJ says, "The point that struck me about the letter was the idea
that Board meetings at these chats are not legal under the current bylaws.
That should be addressed - either we legalize them or we quit having them.
" Greg-2 says, "John, that example doesn't seem plausible to me. I can't
think of a situation where someone who sincerely wanted to give the Moon
Society a lot of money would insist it has to be done within two weeks.
[more] " Greg-2 says, "On the other hand, I can't think of a way the Moon
Society could prevent someone from giving us a lot of money unless there
were strings attached." Severy-6 says, "I didn't quite understand how board
meetings at these chats were not legal..." Greg-2 says, "And if there were
string attached, then definitely the whole board needs to approve it."
kokhmmm says, "Randall, look at the letter. What we have been doing is okay
by me, but not sanctioned by the bylaws." MikeD-1 says, "if there are
strings, it would likely be disapporved" MikeD-1 says, "disapproved too"
MikeD-1 says, "Steve, the board meetings are legal if a quorum of the board
waives notice" Greg-2 says, "I'll give you a concrete example: A fellow
made a Offer Too Good To Be True to us a while ago. He's one of those
charlatans who peddles deeds to lunar property and claims that they are
valid." john-r says, "good points Greg - i was mostly talking of how far
apart the extreams were" john-r says, "with a :)"
Severy-6 says, "I'm re-reading the letter, Peter" Greg-2 says, "John, yeah.
Obviously I was kidding about terrorists, too. I mentioned them because the
President of the United States does have and need emergency powers to deal
with stuff like that." Severy-6 says, "We don't send out 20 days notice
letters, but we always waive such notice at the start of the meeting, so
what part is illegal?" kokhmmm says, "I do think that the issue of
emergency decision making aside, we should rewrite the bylaws to reflect
how we have actually been operating." Severy-6 says, "Peter, how are the
bylaws different from how we have been operating?" kokhmmm says, "I didn't
say it was illegal. I just think we should have language that reflects
custom." Greg-2 says, "Oh... on the legality of board meetings: Peter quote
enough to see the part where 'a member's attendance at a meeting shall
constitute a waiver of notice of the meeting...'" SJ says, "If a quorum can
legally waive notice, the question might be "how hard would it be to get a
quorum together to discuss an urgent situation?"" Greg-2 says, "Good point,
Steve."
MikeD-1 says, "not very hard at all Steve" Severy-6 says, "We always waive
notice, which is allowed in the bylaws, so I don't see how we are not
following the bylaws" Greg-2 says, "Actually, it might be easier to get a
quorum together than to get a specifically designated 3 people together."
MikeD-1 says, "what constitutes a quorum for us?" kokhmmm says, "We never
call a special board meeting, Randall. We always waive notice. Let's just
say that the bylaws should recognize that the Leadership Council meets
twice a month and that the Board may be called into session at any of those
meetings." garygray says, "The majority of the Board need to request a
'specia;" meeting!" Severy-6 says, "I don't think we want to remove the
requirement to waive notice" kokhmmm says, "Yes, Greg, I thought about
that. That's why I am not wed to my original proposal. I just think we
ought to think about how we might handle situations that can't wait."
Severy-6 says, "Providing notice for board meetings is quite standard
everywhere, whether such notice is provided regularly or not" Severy-6
says, "And the bylaws do recognize that the board may be called into
session at any time" Greg-2 says, "Qurom: See paragraph X (a)1: (a) Quorum:
At any meeting of a Body, one-half of the Voting Members of the Body shall
constitute a quorum for the transaction of the business of the Society. "
Greg-2 says, "http://www.moonsociety.org/organizing-documents/bylaws.html"
garygray says, "Randall, only if the majority requests it!" Greg-2 says,
"Peter, I think the real answer to urgent urgencies is Ye Olde Telephone."
MikeD-1 says, "so if we have 4 we have a quorum?" Greg-2 says, "Mike, yes."
MikeD-1 says, "well, 4 can be got hold of quite quickly almost any day"
Greg-2 says, "I think so, yes."
Severy-6 says, "Gary, if you don't already have a majority of the board
present for the meeting, the meeting doesn't serve any value anyway"
Severy-6 says, "So since the request for, calling of, and waiving notice
for, the meeting takes place all at the same time, a quorum is always
present by definition or none of those steps could take place" kokhmmm
says, "But to call a phone session of the Board, the bylaws presently
specify a lot of hoops that would take weeks." garygray says, "YES, BUT THE
ACTUAL CALLING REQUIRES FOR MEMBERS REQUESTING IT!" Severy-6 says, "No need
to shout, Gary" garygray says, "Sorry, about the 'caps;!" kokhmmm says,
"Gary, yes! That's the catch. " MikeD-1 says, "there are 4 board members in
the commons almost 24.7" SJ says, "So phone people and tell them to log
in." MikeD-1 says, "24/7 too"
Severy-6 says, "Gary, maybe I'm being dense, but I still don't see the
problem. You need a majority of the board present to have a valid meeting,
so you automatically have a majority of the board necessary to request the
meeting" garygray says, "So anyone can ask the board members to meet and if
4 show up, them there is a Board meeting?!" MikeD-1 says, "not anyone, only
board members" SJ says, "Not having read all the bylaws, but going by what
I'm hearing: if four board membersshow up and they all WANT a meeting, then
one can legally be held." Greg-2 says, "Gary, yes."
kokhmmm says, "Except that the request has to be by email to the secretary,
blah blah blah. Can't we simplify the bylaws? My only concern is that we
can operate lean and mean when we need to." SJ says, "Peter, there's a
contradiction between what you just said, and the assertion that when we
waive notice at a biweekly chat we are holding a legal meeting." Greg-2
says, "Steve, that's right. I don't think there's a provision for a 5th
board member to show up at the same meeting and object, but there probably
oughtta be." Severy-6 says, "The request can be "electronic", Peter, it
doesn't have to be by e-mail" Severy-6 says, "So a simple request here in
the MOO suffices" Greg-2 says, "Peter, I don't think these bylaws could be
any leaner." Severy-6 says, "The bylaws don't prevent us from doing what we
are already doing, so I still don't see the need to change the bylaws in
that regard" SJ reads the meeting agenda
Greg-2 says, "I think what we have learned is that we already can do what
Peter wanted to do with the Executive Committee. And that it is more likely
that we can do it faster without resorting to the Executive Committee."
kokhmmm says, "Article X, Section 1. b) is what Gary and I are concerned
about." Severy-6 says, "That's what I've been reading, Peter" Severy-6
says, "It says "receipt of a written (printed or electronic) request", but
doesn't specifically mention e-mail" Severy-6 says, "And "A Member's
attendance at any meeting shall constitute a waiver of notice of such
meeting"" Greg-2 says, "Hmm... "The Body" is the Moon Society as a whole."
Severy-6 says, "X-1: For brevity the term Body will be used to refer
interchangeably to a Board, Committee, or Council" Severy-6 says, "In the
context of section 1b, the Body is the board, Greg" john-r says, "what
Randall said, is how i interpert the bylaws" kokhmmm says, "I yield to the
apparent consensus that the present bylaws allow us to meet any occasion
that may arise. I just find the legalese obtuse." Severy-6 says, "Welcome
to corporate bylaws, Peter, I've never seen any that weren't obtuse!"
garygray says, "Yes, Let's get on with the agenda~" dcarson says, "words
with special technical meanings" SJ nods. Tried to write plain English
bylaws once for an organization and was amazed at how much that upsets some
people. Went back to "Robert's Rules" language and they were happy, though
they no longer understood it. Severy-6 says, "But since the bylaws are *the*
legal rules for the organization, there is a reason for obtuse legalese"
kokhmmm says, "Greg and all, what then stops a cabal of 4 from passing all
sorts of stuff without the othe Board Members ever knowing about it? 24/7
on the MOO may make that possible, but how is notice given to everyone who
should get it?" Greg-2 says, "Randall, you're right. I completely
overlooked it." john-r says, "trust that we not form such groups" Severy-6
says, "There isn't, Peter, a quorum of the board can do anything it wants"
Greg-2 says, "Steve, yeah. Been there. Done that. Didn't like it." john-r
says, "until some one sues.."
MikeD-1 says, "since a quorum is 50% or more, the point is academic"
Severy-6 says, "If the members don't like it, they can throw the bums out
at the next election" Severy-6 says, "Or if enough members don't like it,
they can call a special election (I think) and throw the bums out
immediately" Greg-2 says, "I've never invested the time to try to figure
out if it's possible for the board to usurp the membership, but I don't
think so." kokhmmm says, "So a gang of 4 would not even have to notify the
other board members of a meeting or what's on the agenda?" MikeD-1 says,
"they would still have to notify them" Greg-2 says, "Peter, yes. They would
have to document the meeting or it didn't happen." MikeD-1 says, "and that
is the responsibility of the chairman and/or secretary" Greg-2 says, "On
the other hand, a gang of 4 board members can pass any motion they want at
a regular meeting, if they all agree." dcarson says, "if the board is that
divided and back stabbing the best you hope for is the survivirs building
something new from the smoking rubble" Greg-2 says, "If one of the gang of
four disagrees, then all he has to leave and the meeting is no longer
valid." Severy-6 says, "He doesn't even have to leave the meeting, he just
refuses to waive notice and the meeting can't be held" garygray says, "The
Secretary or the Chairman can not stop the Board from meeting even if they
know about it.!" kokhmmm says, "Okay, let's not talk scenarios. This
chicken is dead. Next on the agenda?" Greg-2 says, "Randall, yup, that'll
work. If he doesn't waive notice of the meeting, then the meeting doesn't
happen." Severy-6 says, "Ok, moving on to "Overhaul of Chapters/Outposts
System"" kokhmmm says, "Except that presence at the meeting is the
presumption of waiver." SJ channels Evil Willow. "Bored now . . ." Severy-6
says, "Not if you specifically indicate you do not waive notice, Peter"
Severy-6 says, "The full quote: "A Member's attendance at any meeting shall
constitute a waiver of notice of such meeting, excepting such attendance at
a meeting by the Member for the purpose of objecting to the transaction of
business because the meeting is not lawfully called or convened."" Severy-6
says, "If you object to the meeting, you are not automatically waiving
notice" kokhmmm says, "Chapters and Outposts. I have done a lot on this,
but as I will be visiting the St. Louis chapter at the beginning of
October, I thought I would wait unjtil after that, and the chance to digest
the experience, before giving me report and recommendations." Severy-6
says, "Ok"
Severy-6 says, "Moving on to "Talent/Expertise Database"" MikeD-1 hmms.
Severy-6 says, "I have an add-on for Team Director that I built for another
organization that may fill that need rather easily" kokhmmm says,
"Talent/Expertise Database - something I broughtup before." john-r says, "i
need to get ready to sleep, i will stay connected for awhile" MikeD-1 says,
"put 'computer geek' beside 75% of the names and you have the database"
Severy-6 says, "The challenge is defining the list of talents and expertise
to include in the database" dcarson says, "we are rather over stocked on
computer types" MikeD-1 says, "and rather understocked on all else" kokhmmm
says, "Yes, it should be easy enough. We could give a list of suggested
items, but leave plenty of room for people to add talents and expertise not
mentioned." kokhmmm says, "This would be optional." kokhmmm says, "But if
it is searchable, it might give us an idea of what projects and initiatives
are more likely to encourage volunteers." Severy-6 says, "Well, that's
where it falls apart, Peter, having optional free-form talent fields makes
it very, very difficult to manage" Severy-6 says, "I've been having
discussions with other people about that area, and the searching issues are
immense" kokhmmm says, "Also, a search of the database may give us clues as
to what projects we ought to be looking at." Severy-6 says, "It's easy to
manage if you can predefine the items to select" MikeD-1 says, "I think you
need compulsory ones *and* an optional free-form field" kokhmmm says, "The
L5 Society had put together such a database before the merger. Let's just
say it did not survive the honeymoon." Severy-6 says, "Someone enters
"software development" and another person enters "computer programming". No
search algorithm will know that they are one and the same" Severy-6 says,
"But if you have a standard entry called "computer programming", both
people will check it" MikeD-1 says, "computer programming is just a little
vague" kokhmmm says, "Yes, and if people can check more than one, or as
many as apply, that will help." MikeD-1 says, "It might be better to list
some languages like C++, Java etc" Severy-6 says, "Yup, that's the whole
idea, we come up with a complete list of all of the things that we want to
track, and members just check off which ones apply to them" Severy-6 says,
"It makes it easy to generate lists of members that fit certain criteria,
without struggling with fuzzy matching algorithms" dcarson says, "I think
for what we want general is good" garygray says, "We should also try to
have an open option or space for different interests along with some
standard options!" Greg-2 says, "Yeah. A checklist sounds like it would
produce more useful data." kokhmmm says, "Project management, computer
modeling, model-making, writing, art, anything - let's not prejudge what
would or would not be useful." Greg-2 says, "Gary, right. With a place to
enter some text for keyword searches." Severy-6 says, "We can set up a
mechanism for members to suggest things to add to the list, but open
options are almost impossible to work with effectively" MikeD-1 says,
"Dana, general is good, but I'm a qualified programmer, and I really don't
think Cobol and xBase would be of much benefit to the project, so 'computer
programming' is too vague" kokhmmm says, "Except, Randall, at this stage of
our small membership. We can search manually, and keep the robot (the
computer) out of it." SJ says, "This db isn't going to be MAKING any
decisions, though. It just suggests who's worth talking to when we have a
given need." garygray says, ""Can someone voluteer to do a checklist and
send it to the Council members before the next meeting?!" kokhmmm says,
"The real genius is in the individual trying to find team members for a
project, and his/her insight as to what might work." kokhmmm says, "We can
all do that. If everyone sends there list, and additions, to me, I'll try
to put some order into it and post it." Severy-6 says, "Well, Peter, I have
a system in place that I can easily add to Team Director that tracks
predefined items for individual members, if you want a freeform text search
system it will have to be developed as a new system, and I couldn't predict
when it would be available" dcarson says, "will do Peter"
kokhmmm says, "A lot of organizations try to find out who their members
are, and the checklists they provide usually leave little room for me,
because they are so preconceived. We need a lot of people brainstorming
this." Severy-6 says, "The checklist can be as long as needed, or practical
to deal with, there are no upper limits" SJ says, "Is this a wheel that
*needs* re-inventing?" kokhmmm says, "Okay, let's go with what is nearly
ready, and take it from there." garygray says, "Steve, I don't think so.
Just needs to be used!" kokhmmm says, "My only fear is that many members
will think that they have no relevant talents or expertise, because we may
be giving preconceived signals as to what we are looking for, instead of
taking what we get, and seeing what we can do with it. Genius is the
ability to work with the unexpected." Severy-6 says, "Ok, Peter, if you can
compile the list of talents I'll let you know when Team Director is set up
to enter them all in" SJ says, "So that's why you put in a free-entry
field. And you eye-grep it if you have to." kokhmmm says, "Yes, Steve. The
missing link may prove out to be something you'd never have guessed."
kokhmmm says, "Okay, so if any of you want to put lists together and send
them my way, I'd appreciate that." MikeD-1 says, "Yes, but from what I can
see, Randall has to rewrite the code to do that" kokhmmm says, "
kokhmmm@aol.com or president@moonsociety.org" MikeD-1 says, "i'll send you
something tomorrow Peter" Severy-6 says, "And if you have a free-entry
field, you run the risk of members listing everything in there rather than
take the time to figure out which checkboxes to check, and then you have
defeated most of the value of the system" MikeD-1 says, "I think any
free-entry field should be separate" SJ says, "Would it be undiplomatic of
me to suggest that the members who treat the questionnaire that way are
sending me a message about why I don't want them on a team?" Severy-6
chuckles.
SJ . o O ( IQ 165, check. Can't follow simple written instructions, check.
) MikeD-1 chuckles.
kokhmmm says, "The point is that currently, almost all our activity is
electronic and web-based and if all we flag are the talents and expertise
to keep doing what we have been doing, then we will never be able to expand
in other directions. Just for example. How many of you would have added
illustration artist or cartoonist? But I could certainly use that. We all
know we need more artists. The list is endless." MikeD-1 says, "Steve, if
they go out of their way to tell me their IQ, I don't want them period"
Severy-6 says, "I've been amazed at how creatively stupid very intelligent
people can be :-)" dcarson says, "I've done sysadmin fro engineers, the
stupidity of bright people is awe inspiring" MikeD-1 says, "We wont do that
Peter, I've already added accounting/bookeeping to my list as one example"
Severy-6 says, "Peter, that's a good point, but I would recommend that we
handle that making it easy for members to suggest items to add to the list,
that way other members may select them as well after seeing them as
possibilities" Severy-6 says, "handle that by making, rather ;-)" kokhmmm
says, "Sounds like a plan, Randall!" Severy-6 says, "Ok, moving on to
"Board of Advisors"" Severy-6 says, "Anything to discuss on this agenda
item tonight?" kokhmmm says, "Board of Advisors. I have a list of 33
persons I think worth asking. Some I know personally. Others some of you
may know personally. And that is an edge. I don't think everyone on the BoA
needs to be universally recognized." kokhmmm says, "They just have to be
someone we can ask for advice, guidance, help in writing position papers,
designing workshops etc." kokhmmm says, "Name dropping is one reason to
have a BoA" kokhmmm says, "But it is not the reason at the top of my list."
kokhmmm says, "I want a bunch of people whose insignts we can use to help
get us where we want to go." garygray says, "In other words, another group
that could really help our Society!" kokhmmm says, "I'll send this list off
tomorrow. But I think we shoulde ask these people in stages, and as we are
clearly showing some momentum." Severy-6 says, "Sounds like a good plan!"
kokhmmm says, "After all, we do not present an attractive outfit for many
to be associated with." kokhmmm says, "So, I'll send this list tomorrow,
with details on some of the persons whom you may not recognize. And you can
discuss these and suggest more." dcarson says, "ok"
kokhmmm says, "Any other comments on this issue? The bylaws call for a BoA,
we just haven't gotten around to it." SJ looks forward to seeing it.
Arthur says, "sounds great to me!"
kokhmmm says, "And we are running late! I think I also sent everybody
something on another exciting collaboration project. The opportunity to do
lunar outpost simulations at the Mars Desert Research Station. No need to
committ, but we can start brainstorming just what we might do there."
kokhmmm says, "So that next time. Now time to go to bed. Any seconds?"
MikeD-1 says, "second"
garygray says, "Third!"
john-r says, "fourth"
dcarson says, "aye"
MikeD-1 says, "I have to be up in 2.5 hours" kokhmmm says, "Waiting for the
gavel ..." Severy-6 says, "Yup, thanks for a great meeting everyone!"
kokhmmm says, "Yes, thanks."
john-r says, "night all"
Severy-6 doesn't use a gavel for the council meetings, only the board
meetings :-) john-r has disconnected.
kokhmmm says, "G'night!"
garygray says, "Yes It was a good meeting!" kokhmmm has disconnected.
garygray says, "good night everyone!"
Severy-6 says, "Good night, Gary!"
dcarson says, "gnight"
garygray has disconnected.
MikeD-1 says, "Randall, could you tell James how to change his MMM
subscription to hardcopy if you get a chance" Severy-6 says, "Ok, I'll try,
Mike"
MikeD-1 says, "he wants to, but doesn't know how" SJ says, "Where can I
find current financials? I was recruited for what passes for business
experience . . . I can apply it much more effectively if I know what I'm
talking about here." MikeD-1 says, "I wonder how many more would prefer
hardcopy" MikeD-1 says, "The person to talk to about that is Scotty"
Severy-6 says, "Steve, Scotty has all of the financial data for the Moon
Society" Severy-6 says, "He's the Treasurer"
Greg-2 says, "Scotty is leaving for vacation tomorrow but he should be back
in a few days." SJ says, "E-mail?"
dcarson says, "treasurer@moonsociety.org" dcarson says, "last years endo of
year is at
http://www.moonsociety.org/private/board/treas-reports/20031231-bal.txt"
MikeD-1 says, "that should work, it worked 4 weeks ago" The housekeeper
arrives to cart john-r off to bed. The housekeeper arrives to cart kokhmmm
off to bed. dcarson says, "and
http://www.moonsociety.org/private/board/treas-reports/20031231-inc.txt"
The housekeeper arrives to cart garygray off to bed. SJ says, ""Got them.
Thanks."
dcarson says, "welcome"
SJ gone!
SJ has disconnected.
dcarson goes home.
DaveW leaves.
Arthur has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to cart SJ off to bed. The housekeeper arrives to
cart Arthur off to bed. Greg-2 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Greg-2.

-- End log: Thursday, September 2, 2004 12:20:03 am ASI Meeting Server time--