-- Start log: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:05:18 pm ASI Meeting Server time-- 
Strangelv arrives. Rose/Miros says, "got it" Lunadyne says, "Welcome
everyone to the first Leadership Meeting of 2013." Strangelv leaves.
Lunadyne says, "We've got a lot of exciting things going on this year, so
let's get started." Lunadyne says, "First up: Roll call!" Lunadyne says,
"Here" Lunadyne has disconnected. Chard-1 says, "here" pjbanyai says,
"here" Lunadyne has connected. bnault says, "here" PhilipC says, "here"
Rose/Miros says, "here" Lunadyne says, "Here again." PhilipC says, "Is
Peter here?" Strangelv-2 says, "Peter may still be having technical
difficulties with his ISP" Scottyg says, "here" cfrjlr says, "here (non
voting)" PhilipC says, "If I recall, the last meeting we had took place the
first Wed of December" Lunadyne says, "Looking at membership, I see 174,
which is down two from the last meeting. I'd like to see us top 200 this
year, with a stretch goal of 250." PhilipC says, "I don't know if Peter
drafted minutes for the meeting" Lunadyne says, "I don't recall seeing
any." PhilipC says, "We can probably hold off approving the minutes"
PhilipC says, "Since we already did the roll call, it appears we do not
have enough voting members to have a quorum at this time." Lunadyne says,
"'let do the initial steps'?" Strangelv-2 says, "Dana should be on the way"
Chard-1 says, "(as a side note - I'm leaving for the Police Academy on
Monday and cannot guarantee regular attendance until after March 22)"
PhilipC says, "Thanks Jason, we'll make a note of that." cfrjlr reads the
meeting agenda Lunadyne says, "Philip, what did you mean by 'please let do
the initial steps'?" PhilipC says, "Since we already have the membership
report, is Dana ready to give a treasurers report later on?" dcarson has
arrived. PhilipC says, "Ahh welcome Dana" Lunadyne says, "Speaking of the
Treasurer's report..." PhilipC says, "We now have quorum." dcarson says,
"sorry, fell asleep" cfrjlr applauds PhilipC says, "Dana, we just finished
roll call and the membership report. We are just about to hand the floor
over to you for the treasurer's report." Strangelv-2 says, "Peter is on
target for India quarterly and ahead on MMM." Strangelv-2 says, "He
believes anyone wanting to work on Yuri's should start now" dcarson says,
"still need to talk to Scotty about how some things are classified as to
what accounts" Strangelv-2 says, "He's going to try using someone else's
computer. If he gets in we'll need a new hypothesis for what the technical
difficulty is" dcarson says, "and yes if we are going to do something for
Yuri's night we need to start" Lunadyne says, "How close are those
financials to being fully updated?" dcarson says, "pretty close I think"
PhilipC says, "Do you think it would be ready by the next meeting?"
Lunadyne says, "I guess we should start thinking about the next 990-N..."
dcarson says, "baring something comig up yes" PhilipC says, "If there are
no other reports, is ther any remaining old business we need to discuss?"
Lunadyne says, "I think everyone is anxious to get to the new business that
Charles is bringing us." PhilipC says, "As head of the web committee, I
would say that we got behind during the holidays but that we need to have
another meeting sometime between now and the next management committee
meeting" PhilipC says, "Perhaps after a web committee meeting, we'll have
something more substantail to report next time." PhilipC says, "Hearing no
other old business, I open the floor to new business." PhilipC says,
"Charles..." cfrjlr says, "ok" cfrjlr says, "I sent a couple of emails
today, I hope y'all had a chance to review" cfrjlr says, "Golden Spike is
very similaar to the orignal Artemis Project" cfrjlr says, "the differnece
is that they have a lot of big names on their team, and they have more
funds to work with" cfrjlr says, "Dr. Stern has invited Moon Society to
become involved" Lunadyne says, "What caught his interest?" cfrjlr says,
"that is exciting on the one hand, although we should consider the IRS
restrictions on a non-profit 501c3 beng too closely linked to a for-profit
corporation" cfrjlr says, "maybe something can be devised similar to the
relationship between Moon Society and Artemis Society ?" cfrjlr says, "they
are offer two opportunities 1) their Lunar Lander System Study steering
committee, and 2) their public outreach program" Lunadyne says, "Both are
quite juicy." cfrjlr says, "the first (LLASS) normaly involes making a
financial investment which is probably unrealistic" cfrjlr says, "the
second has a lot of potential ... but it will be a lot of work, since they
are getting a lot of publicity.... so we should be careful what we wish for
:-)" PhilipC says, "How large of an investment are they looking for?"
cfrjlr says, "it reminds me of thee recent Liftport Kickstarter campaig,
where they asked for $8K and raised $110K .... Liftporti s presently
overwhelmed trying to fulfil all the merchandise orders .. it is a lot of
work ..." Strangelv-2 wonders if we should set up a new 501(c)(4) to
replace ASI cfrjlr says, "Phil I did not asked about the level of
investment" Strangelv-2 has actually been thinking in that direction for
awhile cfrjlr says, "Stern indicated that the level of investment could be
small, whatever tha means .... but" Lunadyne says, "There are other issues
as well Charles, which I can't get into. But yes, LiftPort is a bit
overwhelmed." Strangelv-2 says, "only I was assuming we'd also need to set
up a replacement Artemis Project/TLRC" cfrjlr says, "again I am concerned
it might be risky for a 501c to make a direct fincnail investment as such,
but I am not a legal expert ...." cfrjlr says, "I think Scotty has
knowledge about the discussion with teh IRS about Artemis which might be
relevant" Lunadyne says, "I agree with Charles' concerns. I think we should
keep as arms-length as possible." Strangelv-2 says, "WE need to know what
we can get away with doing as a 501(c)(3). This isn't the first time our
status has been an obstacle" cfrjlr says, "we could perhaps make a contract
with GS where MS concentrates purely on the science and educational aspect"
bnault says, "501c3 cannot participate in any for-profit endeavours...fund
raising, yes" Lunadyne says, "We should be able to consult with GS. "
Strangelv-2 says, "DOes anyone remember what the limitations are for
501(c)(4)? Could we set one up to wokr with multiple for-profit efforts?"
PhilipC says, "I was thinking along the same lines" cfrjlr says, "We
resolved the situation with Artemis ... is Artemis still alive?" Lunadyne
says, "Not AFAIK." Strangelv-2 says, "It's still in a coma winth a bad
prognosis" Rose/Miros says, "driving forcehaswandered off tosecondlife"
cfrjlr says, "MS could offer services to GS ... for negotiable fee or
consideration ... or as an kind service" Lunadyne says, "Is Second Life
still around?" Rose/Miros says, "my spacebar isstill broken" Lunadyne says,
"I was thinking In Kind." cfrjlr says, "Second Life is big and active as
ever" cfrjlr says, "ok In Kind service might give us a seat at the table of
the LLASS committee" Chard-1 says, "I recently built a combat engine for
second life" Strangelv-2 says, "What qualifies?" Lunadyne says, "So GS puts
us on the LLaSS committee, and our membership does non-remunerated work for
the team." PhilipC says, "What if we could develop lunar simulant? It would
involve studying material science and they could help us get the funding we
need to acquire the materials needed." MikeD-1 arrives. cfrjlr says, "that
might be worth proposing Phil" PhilipC says, "We could develop enough of it
to be of use for them as well as other endeavors." cfrjlr says, "James can
you rephrase your question ?" Chard-1 says, "however NSS is using science
sim. or something like that.. opensim based by Intel" Strangelv-2 says,
"Who do we still have or can reliably hope to bring back on board with the
needed skill set?" cfrjlr says, "What kind of skills do we need ?" bnault
says, "lunar simulant is already easily available commercially..." pjbanyai
says, "I believe their are certain guidelines which dictate how Non-profits
can be involved with for profit companies, however they are not completely
barred from involvement. The problem with ASI is that the founding articles
places TLRC as being in ultimate control of the board." Strangelv-2 says,
"What qualifies as an in kind contribution that we're allowed to do for a
for-profit" Lunadyne says, "The guy that came up with the recipe for JSC-1a
is right here in Dallas." Lunadyne says, "James, like I noted above, they
put us on the LLaSS committee and our members do non-remunerated work on
the study." Strangelv-2 says, "IS that the full extent?" PhilipC says, "The
main question I would have for him is "is JSC-1a" determined by chemical
composition alone or did he do anything else extra?" Lunadyne says, "The
issue is if we keep things arms-length. If they give us money, we have to
provide product." cfrjlr says, "the public outreach task could be very
extensive .... we could offer copies of MMM ando ther membership benefits
via the GS mailing list database" cfrjlr says, "GS has a pretty big email
dtaabase and it is getting biggerwith all their publcity, for instance"
bnault says, "JSC1a is both mechanically and chemically close...not exact
but close." cfrjlr says, "GS is trying to keep people interested in their
vision, and want us to help" Lunadyne says, "Phil, there are about a
half-dozen different simulants on the market, providing different aspects
of the regolith experience. the JSC-1a is bulk similar, but has the quality
of being ground to particle sizes mimicking the smallest regolith bits,
i.e. <10 nm" pjbanyai says, "By the way Charles your membership renewal has
not yet been processed. Did you have any problems with your renewal?"
cfrjlr says, "let us table the regolith simulant for now .... we could set
up a subcommittee to discuss possible research topics" Strangelv-2 says,
"How many people would we need to provide information to? This also jumps
into our ISP migration situation. If we offer things electronically of any
size there will be a spike ind bandwidth usage" Lunadyne says, "Methinks
the topics would come from GS." cfrjlr says, "it looked like everything
went through OK on my teamdir renewal, I received a confirmaiton email"
cfrjlr says, "a lot of what GS is doing is similar to what Transorbitl
tried, but GS is gettign a lot more traction" Lunadyne says, "I agree on
the outreach, but again we have to be careful not to come across as paid
shills, or kool-aid drinking cheerleaders." PhilipC says, "As for providing
public communications, we're not ready yet. We need to update our website
and then we need to build the communications committee." Strangelv-2 says,
"I"s suspect we're too cantankerous and set in our ways to become shills"
PhilipC says, "Much would depend on what time frame we can expect to get
involved." PhilipC says, "Realistically, I would put us at somewhere
between 6-9 months" Lunadyne says, "Agreed. I do think this could fire up
the membership though. Something needs to." cfrjlr says, "I thnk GS wants
to move fairly quickly, their web site says public outreach campaign will
begin "some time in 2012"" cfrjlr says, "2013 not 2012 ooops" PhilipC says,
"I think we DO need to have some type of scientific contribution to engage
the members" Strangelv-2 says, "or engineering?" Lunadyne says, "Which is
why our two science projects, Lava Tubes and Solar Sail Comm Sats, might be
perfect." cfrjlr says, "I like the idea of volunteers looking through new
luanr orbiter images trying to find lava tubes and skylights ...." PhilipC
says, "Science is easy since the knowledge can be shared. Engineering might
require NDAs." cfrjlr says, "thanks Ken, I agree they sound perfect"
Lunadyne says, "Maybe we could get MoonZoo to add a Lava Tube Challenge"
cfrjlr says, "Phil you are exactly correct" cfrjlr says, "I contacted
MoonZoo about that but they ignored me ... on the other hand if the request
was backed up by Golden Spike ... that might be different ...." Rose/Miros
says, "trisha'sgroup seemspretty gungho,sincethey're a newchapter" cfrjlr
says, "who where is Trisha ?" Strangelv-2 says, "Ft Worth" Lunadyne says,
"I'm getting fixated on the idea of a pole-sitting solar sail parked over
the Lunar south pole providing comms into the everdark craters from
overhead." Rose/Miros says, "they'd probably give quite abitof timeto an
imageidentification project " Lunadyne says, "She will likely try another
Yuri's Night event." cfrjlr says, "take a look at the Liftport Kickstarter
web site for ideas on what the public are willing to pay for , it is quite
eye opening" cfrjlr says, "some many members of the public are willing to
purchase trinkets and t-shirts will logos and so forth if they think the
cause is worthwhile, and Liftport did a good job getting their word out
..... " Lunadyne says, "I'm working with Michael on another project."
Lunadyne says, "I'm pretty sure GS is going to be presenting at ISDC. I
wonder if there's any way to get them into our track as well." cfrjlr says,
"again, I think this will allow MoS to increase the volume of operations,
we would get access to a huge database of people who we could start
"marketing" Moon Society membership and projects to ...... I think there is
a good chance GS might like the Lava Tube project idea and others" cfrjlr
says, "Ken we can certainly ask GS to join our track if there is room on
it" Lunadyne says, "I think we can make room. We had Shackleton Energy in
2012." cfrjlr says, "the solar sail commsats also sounds interesting"
cfrjlr says, "interesting I did not know that Shackleton Energy
participated" Strangelv-2 says, "It's what we get for missing ISDC" cfrjlr
says, "who is in charge of the LT and SSCS projects ? Sorry I am a it out
of touch" Lunadyne says, "Absolutely. People are just waking up to the idea
of having a Solar Sail just sit over the pole of a planet, since everyone
thinks of orbits the old-fashioned way." cfrjlr says, "I just got a
confirmation email that my MS membership has been processed" Lunadyne says,
"175 members, woo hoo!" Rose/Miros says, "can a sail station keep like
that?" dcarson says, "
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/michaellaine/space-elevator-science-climb-to-the-sky-a-tethered"
cfrjlr says, "other sicence projects would be trying to find concentrated
ores of interested minerals, eg. ilmenite, KREEP etc, maybe helping
scientists with their data analysis with more MoonZoo type projects"
dcarson says, "almost 3500 backers" cfrjlr says, "Rose, solar sail would
need to be pretty big, I would need to see the numbers" Lunadyne says, "The
sail is in orbit around the Sun. It tacks around the rotational axis of the
planet as the planet orbits the Sun." Lunadyne says, "Or Moon, in our
case." cfrjlr says, "yes Dana, Liftport has thousands of backers, and are
overhwlemed trying to process the data and fulfil all the orders ... it is
a good problem to have" Lunadyne says, "Charles, here's the situation with
the Science Projects:" cfrjlr says, "MS could have a simialr problem ... we
need to be ready for a flood of memberhsip applicaitons, and a flood of
volunteers offering to do things" Lunadyne says, "One, each is funded at
about $3000 due to a bequest." Lunadyne says, "They have broad definition,
but nothing specific. Might be Kickstarter worthy." pjbanyai says, "We have
4100 facebook likes as well. There was a large "spike" in interest in the
past week." Lunadyne says, "There are no team leaders. I'm trying to
jumpstart the Lava Tube field exercise with the topic of our track at this
year's ISDC - Lunar Lava Tubes" Lunadyne says, "Both are underfunded and in
limbo." cfrjlr says, "I guess once approach might be to "Co-brand" the
projects, e.g offer to public name them as GS/MS joint projects, in each
exchange be enrolled into their LLASS committee, that should be Kosher from
the IRS standpoint imho" cfrjlr says, "for the $3K bequest is not adequate
? or is depleted ?" cfrjlr says, "I sent out about 1500 notificaitons onf
Facebook, I caused the spike ...." Strangelv-2 says, "danke" cfrjlr says,
"I invited about 1500 of my Facebook friends to like the MS page" Lunadyne
says, "Just sitting there. It's not enough to really do anything
worthwhile. A field exercise could chew up all $3K in one weekend." cfrjlr
says, "you can all do the same" Lunadyne says, "I kind of guessed something
along those lines Charles when you sent the GS e-mail." dcarson says, "a
kickstarter also get people involved which can lead to involvement in later
projects" cfrjlr says, "If you are an admin o nthe page, the admin menu
provides a nice simple interface where you simply repeataedly click a
button to invite a friend, and it keeps giving you more buttons to click
for more friends, I got 1500 done in about 20 minutes" Lunadyne says, "The
intent with the ISDC track is to generate a higher level of interest in
Lunar Lava Tubes, and perhaps lead into a Kickstarter to raise the funds
for a field exercise to gauge robotic explorer communications strategies."
cfrjlr says, "it looks like ISDC might be a good oportunity to announce
teaming with GS, if a plan can be formulated and agreed in time .... should
be plenty of time ..... " Lunadyne says, "Not as much as you'd think..."
pjbanyai says, "Most of the project teams are not connected to teamdir. The
Solar Power beaming team also has a bug in teamdir which prevents anyone
from joining." cfrjlr says, "GS might plan their own press confernece, e.g.
in Washington DC, they have enough pull that news media will cover them"
Lunadyne says, "That's why I'd like to migrate away from TeamDir towards
some kind of wiki/maillist hybrid creature." cfrjlr says, "pity about the
bug in the power beaming team ..... can anybody work on that ?" Lunadyne
says, "That's why I'm thinking they'll get a big room presence at ISDC, as
Excalibur Almaz did last year." Rose/Miros says, "i'lllookatit,butidoubt
icanfix it" cfrjlr says, "ok. Liftport has a web forum which is donated by
a c omapny in Canada, I recommend y'all take a look at it .... " cfrjlr
says, "community.liftport.com" cfrjlr says, "it is quite powerful, rtuns on
a platform called "Nexus" which has a lot of very cool features" Lunadyne
says, "Michael has worked really hard to build his community." Rose/Miros
says, "forums andwikis takelots of spamcontrol" cfrjlr says, "yes, there
are some pretty good spam tools on feld0 .... he has fought off a few big
"bot" attacks" pjbanyai says, "The bug says "Unable to add member to WSD
Express (WSD Error: )"" Strangelv-2 has been having an ongoing garbage
problem with one particular non-space wiki, but the space wikis that are
under the control of the Moon Society get hit by some of the same
malefactors cfrjlr says, "hmm, is there a WSD expert in the house ?"
Strangelv-2 looks at Dana dcarson says, "not on that part of WSD" cfrjlr
says, "Ken, why are the MS science projects in limbo ? did they run out of
money ?" dcarson says, "I did the WSD/WebDAV nterface" cfrjlr says, "did
Randall do the WSD back end ?" Lunadyne says, "No one has stepped up to do
them, either as leader or follower. We keep announcing that we're looking
for people." dcarson says, "yes maot of the code is Randall" cfrjlr says,
"hi Ken, ok, so one pitch might be that through GS we might have
opportunity to recuit members from a bigger pol. Did you make an appeal for
volunteers on the Facebook group perhaps ? Or do we want to keep it members
only .... could offer leadership as a membership perk ?" Lunadyne says, "I
do want to keep it just to the membership, because if we do this right we
might be able to publish the results to earn some scientific creds for
TMS." cfrjlr says, "Maybe somebody could ask Randall nicley if he could
take a look at it, I guess he is probably swamped as usual" PhilipC says,
"I think much of why we're behind is the website. It's in sore need of an
upgrade and without a communication hub for people, it will be difficult to
recruit new members, much less new leaders" Lunadyne says, "Agree 1000%"
cfrjlr says, "Ken, maybe you could post something on the Facebook group ?
Or did you already do that ?" Lunadyne says, "It's always helpful to repost
stuff periodically." cfrjlr says, "Liftport put up a nice simple web site
on Squarespace server" cfrjlr says, "Liftport.com" PhilipC says, "Quite
honestly, we've had to pull back on the reigns of what we'd like to do
because of the website. We're only JUST starting to consider alternative
possibilities. If you have any, send them to me." cfrjlr says, "the
Squarespace server has a simple WYSYWIG editor for creating web pages I
helped edit many of the Liftport web pages. What are the features which MS
would like to see in a new web site ?" Lunadyne says, "
http://www.moonsociety.org/ken-index-1.html" cfrjlr says, "looks nice"
Lunadyne says, "Needs some polishing and a couple widgets like a news
scroller, but should work better with mobile devices." cfrjlr says, "good
point" Lunadyne says, "And some Moonbase lights tucked in a crater."
PhilipC says, "an art style that's first-person/on-the-surface" Rose/Miros
says, "themes/templates, sowe canhavea dark and lightversion with minimal
fiddling" PhilipC says, "but simplicity and easy enough to use for mobile
device. " PhilipC says, "These are things the web committee hasn't even
begun to discuss" PhilipC says, "Right now we're mainly focused on the
back-end" cfrjlr says, "I would like to plan another conference call with
GS maybe in a couple of weeks, are there particular tiems which are good /
bad ? I think they would prefer a voice call rather than Moo. I have a free
confernece call line available" PhilipC says, "Once we know what we'd like
to have on the back-end, then we can discuss the front-end" pjbanyai says,
"Is there some way to check how many people are subscribed to the
artemis-list? Besides that mailing list and the artemis-news list we only
have our open general discussion list which is only open to those members
that have a working teamdir account. Many members may not have spent the
time to get a username and password setup. We also have not posted a
newsletter in a long time. Not to mention the fact that we do not have an
easy way to signup for the newsletter mentioned anywhere on the webpage."
MikeD-1 says, "you know the rule keep it stupid simple" dcarson says, "we
need to have a couple of people work on what we want to do with GS not al
of us just during meetings" MikeD-1 says, "that's been broken constantly
for the last 16 years" Lunadyne says, "I want to be on the GS team! Pick
me!" dcarson says, "can count the list of addresses for the lists easily"
PhilipC says, "As for me, if we could do something related to lunar
simulant, I'd be interested in that. If we can a communication committee up
and running, then I'd expect that it would be an ideal vehicle that can
dovetail with GS' public outreach efforts" Chard-1 has disconnected. The
housekeeper arrives to remove Chard-1. cfrjlr says, "another idea" PhilipC
says, "I suppose I'd also want to know what's GS's objective" MikeD-1 says,
"how easy is it to get simulant commercially?" MikeD-1 says, "and is it as
good as the jsc stuff?" cfrjlr says, "Moon Society could perhaps act as a
customer, and take an option to purchase science services from GS, that
might get a place at the LLASS committee, just thinking out loud here, not
sure if it is a good idea or not" Lunadyne says, "Pretty easy. As I said,
there are at least half a dozen varieties." PhilipC says, "I last heard
that JSC is out" cfrjlr says, "Luanr Simulant is available commercialy,
Bill Clawson bought some and worked with it a couple of years ago"
Strangelv-2 also seems to remember that the recipe was lost or
irreproducible or similar cfrjlr says, "every year NASA KSC has a
Lunabotics competition where they build robots to shovel luanr simulant"
MikeD-1 says, "yeah, but how much did he buy?" cfrjlr says, "not much, why,
how much do we need ?" MikeD-1 says, "depends how many attempts it needs to
make blocks" Strangelv-2 . o O ( could TD Lin's concrete tech be
experimented with using cheap commercial simulant and an aparatus printed
on a RepRAp? ) cfrjlr says, "teams from all over the world compete in the
NASA KSC luabotics contest, it is very cool" Lunadyne says, "Here's one.
I'd have to dig for more. http://orbitec.com/store/simulant.html" cfrjlr
says, "what exactly do you want to do with lunar simulant ?" cfrjlr says,
"I think we should team with Lunabotics teams, each year they give a couple
of prizes to winners, the contest has been going for several years now"
MikeD-1 says, "so almost $700 for just barely enough to make some paving
slabs" cfrjlr says, "One of the Liftport people, Ben Stinnet, is involved
with the Arizona State University Lunabotics team, and I have been trying
to get him hooked up wit the Phonex chapter of MS" cfrjlr says, "Phoneix"
cfrjlr says, "Phoenix" cfrjlr says, "Phil, GS objectives are listed on
their web pages" cfrjlr says, "what would be next steps and schedule?"
Rose/Miros says, "ok,lunabotics is robotshovels, there's also growing stuff
in it andmaking concrete fromit" cfrjlr says, "
http://goldenspikecompany.com/about-us/golden-spike-history/" Lunadyne
says, "Growing stuff in simulant doesn't work. Not what it's made for."
Strangelv-2 says, "That might be a basis for creating a new simulant, then"
Rose/Miros says, "ok, on to concrete" MikeD-1 says, "concrete for the
hydroponcs and habs" MikeD-1 says, "there's also the question of glass"
cfrjlr says, "Change is on the lunar horizon - led by the private sector. "
Scottyg says, "Might be an interesting project to see what has to be added
to lunar simulant to support plants." cfrjlr says, "nutrients" MikeD-1
says, "it would be Scotty, unfortunately we know that's going to be
something related to biomass" Rose/Miros stage whipspers POO Lunadyne says,
"I posted a picture on the Facebook page showing plants grown with real
regolith added." Rose/Miros says, "added,but not theprimary constituent"
Lunadyne says, "Back on December 11th." Lunadyne says, "Let's just go get
the real thing instead of futzing around with fake stuff." cfrjlr says,
"The Golden Spike Company is intent on achieving affordable, reliable, and
frequent human expeditions to the Moon." cfrjlr says, "I agree Ken :-)"
dcarson says, "Vik Oliver did find it was a good base for hydroponics"
cfrjlr says, "The Golden Spike Company is intent on achieving affordable,
reliable, and frequent human expeditions to the Moon." cfrjlr says, "Our
space expeditions will be marketed and sold to governmental agencies,
companies, and individuals in the United States and around the worldfor
science, for commerce, for tourism, for entertainment engagement, and for
education." cfrjlr says, "Golden Spike will monetize these expeditions
through:" cfrjlr says, "Expedition sales" cfrjlr says, "Public
participation/membership in expeditions" cfrjlr says, "Media rights, brand
licensing, and expedition advertising sales" cfrjlr says, "Expedition
naming rights and merchandising" cfrjlr says, "Sales of items flown" cfrjlr
says, "Sales of returned samples and expeditions artifacts" cfrjlr says,
"Entertainment products that market each expedition" Rose/Miros says, "if
you've gone to the troubleof gettingout of thebig gravity well, it's a
shame todrop stuff right back in" Rose/Miros says, "at least thestuff
andpeople you solaboriously lifted out" Lunadyne says, "But it does make
sense if they are value-added goods otherwise unavailable in the Well."
Rose/Miros says, "some moron willmakeknockoffs" Lunadyne says, "The folks
who would buy knockoffs are not our market" Rose/Miros says, "there's
people whobuy knockoffs knowing they are, and peoplewho don't know andbuy
inadvertantly" Rose/Miros says, "friend of minedoes animation cells, lots
you have tolearnbefore you buy" dcarson says, "what ceticate of
authenticity is for" Strangelv-2 says, "I suspect more than that is needed"
Strangelv-2 says, "Same episode, different sceen, worth a lot less"
Rose/Miros says, "that's why family members should give money andlet
theenthusiast buy theirown stuff" pjbanyai says, "Here is a link for what
the IRS says about Non-Profits owning For-profit subsidiaries--
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopice86.pdf" PhilipC says, "It CAN be
done, it just can't exceed about 40% of our budget" cfrjlr says, "ok cool
yes" Lunadyne says, "Like I was saying, it has to be at arm's length."
PhilipC says, "I don't remember if it's 30% or 40% but it's in that
ballpark" MikeD-1 says, "define our budget please" PhilipC says, "tiny"
bnault says, "40% of not a lot is not much" PhilipC says, "precisely"
MikeD-1 says, "is that gross assets budget or operating budget which is way
way less" Lunadyne says, "It's not about budget, it's about control."
Scottyg says, "Its revenue Mike." PhilipC says, "knowing the IRS, they'll
probably claim the most conservative number from their perspective, so
we'll have to assume gross" Scottyg says, "But I'm not sure if that's gross
or net revenue." MikeD-1 says, "so we're talking around about $1400 a year"
Lunadyne says, "If TMS were to actively manage the subsidiary, that would
be an issue. If all we did was collect dividends that's much less of an
issue, until it's seen as a way of shoveling money to the 501c3. Since we
don't have paid officers, the conflicts of interest aren't there." PhilipC
says, "the key is that we need to demonstrate that our primary focus is
education and public outreach, rather than earning profits" PhilipC says,
"I'm also sure that the number is averaged over the course of an entire
year" Scottyg says, "A non-profit is permitted to conduct for-profit
activities within certain limits. Its more about how revenue is used than
how its obtained." PhilipC says, "so we could probably greatly exceed that
limit, but so long as we recruit enough members to make the budget work out
in the end, it should be kosher" PhilipC says, "A well-funded communication
committee, backed with an updated website, should be able to recruit plenty
of people" Scottyg says, "If we anticipate generating substantial revenue,
we should hire an accountant or tax lawyer who specializes in non-profit."
pjbanyai says, "So could we buy TLRC and then completly merge with ASI :-O"
Strangelv-2 likes that idea Lunadyne says, "Part of why I've wanted us to
get an audited set of financials to start out with." MikeD-1 says, "can't
see that happening" Strangelv-2 says, "Not sure about how we'd merge with a
501(c)(4), though" Scottyg says, "You say that laughingly but you may be
able to buy TRLC if you want." Strangelv-2 says, "Can we wholly own a
for-profit?" cfrjlr says, "yes, note that Liftport raised $110K on
Kickstarter within a few weeks and GS can get a similar level of publicity"
cfrjlr says, "James read the link ... yes it can but there are conditions
...." MikeD-1 says, "but would TLRC even be for sale?" Strangelv-2 says,
"DO we just need a majority stake to say yes?" PhilipC says, "Is TLRC a
501c4?" Strangelv-2 says, "TLRC is a for-profit company" Strangelv-2 says,
"It was the center hub of the Artemis Project joint venture" Lunadyne says,
"Does it have assets worth buying?" cfrjlr says, "A parent's exempt status
may be jeopardized if the commercial activities of its subsidiary can be
considered to be, in fact, activities of the parent." Strangelv-2 says,
"Not sure what tangible assets. It has connections and trademarks" cfrjlr
says, "does TLRC have debts ?" MikeD-1 says, "that's a good question"
dcarson says, "don't think so" cfrjlr says, "where the parent corporation
so controls the affairs of the subsidiary that it is merely an
instrumentality of the parent" MikeD-1 says, "this would require legal and
accounting advice" cfrjlr says, "fortunately, debts of a subsidiary do not
become obligations of the parent" PhilipC says, "Yeah but remember you have
nonprofits like Goodwill or the American Red Cross that also have
commercial activities, yet their tax-exempt status isn't threatened. Why
would we be any different?" cfrjlr says, "once it is established that a
taxable subsidiary was formed for a valid business purpose, the activities
of such a subsidiary cannot be attributed to its parent unless the facts
provide clear and convincing evidence that the subsidiary is in reality an
arm," Scottyg says, "TLRC is a for-profit corporation. It is solvent but
inactive. There are three major stockholders who might be interested in
selling their holding." Rose/Miros has reconnected. Rose/Miros says,
"simshost aka tlrc wasintended to break even, but did it?" cfrjlr says,
"avoid: situations where the parent is involved in the day-to-day
management of the subsidiary, where the subsidiary's Board of Directors has
no independence of action, or where transactions between the two entities
are conducted on a basis that is otherwise than at arm's length" Scottyg
says, "The net worth is less than the stockholders invested." Strangelv-2
notes that this is an idea we should have thought of many years ago MikeD-1
says, "wasn't really open to us many years ago" Strangelv-2 says, "If we
got nothing eles out of it we could get ASI up and walking around again"
MikeD-1 says, "has only become a possibility since things wound down a
couple of years ago" Scottyg says, "And TLRC is in good standing with the
State of Texas." Strangelv-2 says, "Which is in and of itself an asset"
MikeD-1 says, "I'm not sure ASI is salvageable at this point, no idea what
the hit rate is on that website" Strangelv-2 says, "That depends on what we
want out of it" Lunadyne says, "But what are the assets?" Scottyg says, "A
modest bank balance is the only tangible asset." MikeD-1 says, "all the ASI
graphics that Vik made for a start" Strangelv-2 says, "Historical
connections, reputation, links to multiple businesses" Scottyg says,
"Control of ASI. Ownership of some trademarks." Strangelv-2 says, "It's a
501(c)(4) that can get in closer than we can as a 501(c)(3)" PhilipC says,
"It would be preferrable that if ASI is also defunct, that they would
transfer ownership to us and change their name, so that we gain control
over any remaining assets and retain their c4 status" Strangelv-2 says,
"CAn we have dal status, though?" Strangelv-2 says, "dual?" MikeD-1 says,
"I assume TLRC doesn't own anything of Cyberteams" PhilipC says, "Yes"
pjbanyai says, "http://www.lunasoft.com/ was a subsidiary of TLRC. LunaSoft
was founded in 1997 to develop software for the Artemis Project. It was
committed to providing highly realistic simulation games and educational
programs." PhilipC says, "The Sierra Club has both, so can we" PhilipC
says, "We just need to be explicit when fundraising" Strangelv-2 says,
"Originally we were going to be an umbrella organization. ASI would
continue to be the one directyl interacting witht the people bending metal"
Scottyg says, "ASI is not IRS recognized. It was incorporated as an Alabama
non-profit but has never filed for IRS recognition." Strangelv-2 says,
"Also, ASI still has- a reputation. In many ways it continues to be more
visible than we are. I would want to maintain it as a separate but
affiliated entity" PhilipC says, "It's easy to raise c3 dollars but hard to
spend it. More difficult to raise c4 dollars but easier to spend it."
cfrjlr says, "hmmm I do not think one org can have dual status, but NSS has
a family of orgs : NSS + Spacecause + SpacePAC each with different tax
status, but overlapping BoDs" pjbanyai says, "Here is an Internet Archive
snapshot of the TLRC webpage--
http://web.archive.org/web/20070403151032/http://www.tlrc.com/" PhilipC
says, "James, that's a matter of publicity. A few well managed
communication campaigns can change that pretty quickly" Strangelv-2 says,
"I would want ASI to delegate control of its board to us. WE could then
have ASI elections in addition to our own" Strangelv-2 says, "Yes, but ASI
was there in 1994. So were we as a group but not as the Moon Society"
cfrjlr says, "I have to move my machine, hope my wireless will pick up"
Strangelv-2 says, "Explaining the Moon Society without mentioning ASI gets
harder" Rose/Miros says, "asi intellectual property: artemis data book"
PhilipC says, "The Sierra Club has dual status with c3 and c4, and a
separate organization for its PAC" Strangelv-2 says, "Thank you for
mentioning that" Strangelv-2 says, "Yes, freeing up control of the ADB
would help greatly" Lunadyne says, "What does the Artemis Data Book give
us?" Rose/Miros says, "adbat leastneedstobecomea wiki" pjbanyai says, "I
think Artemis Magazine would be considered one of the assets." Strangelv-2
says, "WE would no longer need to create a static document repository,
which we still don't have, and we could then have parts of it reference
Lunarpedia" Strangelv-2 says, "Another good one." Strangelv-2 isn't awake
enough to remember these things MikeD-1 says, "migrating the ADB to a less
/l/a/b/y/r/i/n/t/h/i/n/e/ format would help too" Strangelv-2 says, "As a
long term goal, yes" Lunadyne says, "What data does it contain that doesn't
exist elsewhere?" Strangelv-2 says, "MAybe medium term. That's going to be
work, although I suspect volunteers will step forward" cfrjlr says, "I
suspect Sierra Club has different corporate entitties, I will have ot look
into it" Rose/Miros says, "that's because adb was clearly a wikistyle
project,but there was no such thing as a wiki backthen" PhilipC says, "The
meeting will need to be adjourned in 5 minutes" Strangelv-2 says, "DO we
have any motions?" Strangelv-2 says, "Or at least a summary of what we've
worked out?" Lunadyne says, "I do have a challenge." cfrjlr says, "right,
we essentially replaced ADB with Lunarpedia, that was the idea of Mike
Mealling a few years ago and thanks to all here who helped with that"
cfrjlr says, "please tell me what to do about GS ...." MikeD-1 says,
"actually it was me Charles" Strangelv-2 says, "But it's not a complete
replacement, and it can't use any of the original documents -- it can only
reference them" cfrjlr says, "Thank Mike D !" MikeD-1 says, "Mr Mealling
had already departed for Masten by that time" cfrjlr says, "ok" Lunadyne
says, "Charles, I'd like to get on a call to GS with you to feel out what
they're looking for." Strangelv-2 says, "Another big advwantage to buying
TLRC and gaining control of ASI and its assets: we'd be able to do
something about this big gaping hole we've had as an organization for the
past decade" dcarson says, "we need to have a couple of people work on what
we want to do with GS not al of us just during meetings" cfrjlr says,
"shall we plan another conf call ? I would like to have some more dialogue
before the next leadership meting if possible .... can you authorize me to
continue negotiations with GS on behalf of MS .... ?" Lunadyne says, "I
want to be on the GS Team! Pick me!" cfrjlr says, "Ken, you are the boss
:-) !" Strangelv-2 says, "That sounds like something to make a motion for"
Strangelv-2 says, "COuld someone move that we appoint Charles Radley to act
as our liason with Golden Spike?" PhilipC says, "GS sounds like something a
Standing Committee would be ideal for handling." Rose/Miros says,
"letsstart with a liason" Lunadyne says, "Sounds like a fait accompli,
James, but I'll field the motion." Strangelv-2 says, "MOve to form a
standing committee and appoint its chair, presumabrly either Ken or
Charles?" PhilipC says, "point of order" PhilipC says, "we already have a
standing committee" PhilipC says, "it's called the leadership council"
PhilipC says, "we just need to activate it" PhilipC says, "I think the
motion we're looking for is:" Strangelv-2 says, "Its membership is
ambiguous, though. We might want a committtee with a precise membership"
cfrjlr pokes leadership council with index finger pjbanyai says, "David A.
Dunlop is Liaison Director however he does not have an active team."
Strangelv-2 lookns at Charles PhilipC says, "That we activate the
Leadership Council, appoint Ken Murphy to preside over it, and to appoint
Charles Radley to serve as liaison for Golden Spike, who shall report to
the Leadership Council" Rose/Miros says, "so contactdavedunlop andtell him
charlesis theliason togoldenspike" PhilipC says, "The Leadership Council is
vested with all of the authority as the management committee until the next
meeting." PhilipC says, "Is the wording of this motion agreeable?"
Strangelv-2 says, "I'm not sure we can do that" Strangelv-2 says, "What is
Charles wanting to say?" PhilipC says, "In the Bylaws, the Leadership
Council = a Standing Committee" Strangelv-2 says, "Yes, but I don't belivee
we can give it our full set of powers" PhilipC says, "In general standing
committees handle business between meetings but have limited authority
(until our next meeting)" cfrjlr has reconnected. pjbanyai says, "The
Leadership Council is a subcommitte of the Management Committee it has
limited powers. It is however in charge of the General Discussion team."
cfrjlr says, "sorry, my wireless did not pick up" Strangelv-2 says, "What
if we task the president with setting up an appropriate committee and
leason" Strangelv-2 says, "What were you wanting to say, Charles?" cfrjlr
says, "nothing right now" PhilipC says, "My point is, Charles be given
oversight by the Leadership Council" cfrjlr says, "I will be happy with any
of the options proposed" Strangelv-2 looks at Ken Lunadyne says, "I'm kind
of thinking a special committee should be formed, a la web committee, but
Leadership Council may work." pjbanyai says, "Currently Scotty is the
Leadership Team Leader/Chair. We could appoint Charles as the new team
leader." Strangelv-2 says, "or is Scotty okay with continuing as its chair?
If the purpose of the Leadisctip COmmittee on this task is to look over
Charles' shoulder he probably shouldn't be chairing it" Strangelv-2 looks
at Scotty pjbanyai says, "There is also the Outreach Commitee." PhilipC
says, "Does the Outreach Committee have a chair?" Scottyg says, "I'm not
possessive about being team leader. Mostly, someone had to be penciled in."
Strangelv-2 says, "Are you up to and interested in continuing?" Lunadyne
says, "I move we form a Golden Spike Project Committee, with Ken to serve
as the chair and Charles as vice-chair/GS liaison." Strangelv-2 looks for a
second PhilipC says, "I'd second if i could" dcarson says, "second" PhilipC
says, "All in favor say aye" bnault says, "aye" Lunadyne says, "aye"
PhilipC says, "aye" Rose/Miros says, "aye" dcarson says, "aye" pjbanyai
says, "Aye" PhilipC says, "The ayes have it" PhilipC says, "So moved"
cfrjlr says, ""help with publich outreach .. could be big deal " to
DaveW-2" Strangelv-2 symborically goes aye, but it doesn't count Scottyg
says, "aye" Lunadyne says, "symborically?" cfrjlr says, "thanks, sounds
good to me" PhilipC says, "Are there any other motions?" Strangelv-2's
typing does not improve when he's sleep deprived Rose/Miros says, "do we
needto setanythingup in team dir?" Lunadyne says, "I do want to once again
issue my writing challenge." Strangelv-2 forgot to write something for that
didn't he PhilipC says, "We should expect a report from the GSPC at the
next meeting. It goes without saying that we do not want you to commit us
to anything without this body's approval" PhilipC says, "If there are no
other motions, I move to adjourn." Lunadyne says, "I'd like to see each
member of the leadership team to publish something - a letter to the
editor, a blog post, a journal article, something, by the end of the year."
Lunadyne says, "Of course, Philip. I tread very cautiously." PhilipC says,
"Before we adjourn, are there any announcements?" Lunadyne says, "I've been
invited to speak at the Mensa Annual gathering." Strangelv-2 claps.
Lunadyne says, "on Moon stuff." PhilipC says, "congratulations!" Lunadyne
says, "That's around July 4th in Fort Worth." PhilipC says, "Last call for
announcements" PhilipC says, "Let this meeting now be adjourned" Lunadyne
says, "Second" PhilipC says, "Thank you for attending" 
dcarson says, "Ian Strock is involved in Mensa (or was) might see if he'll be
there"
-- End log: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:15:07 pm ASI Meeting Server time --