-- Start log: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 8:58:20 pm ASI Meeting Server time --

saavik reads the meeting agenda
Michael-1 arrives.
Severy-1 has arrived.
Michael-1 says, "odd... couldn't get in here earlier" saavik says, "Beat
you here Randall...." dcarson arrives.
kokhmmm has arrived.
kokhmmm says, "Greetings!"
saavik says, "Greetings and Salutations" saavik says, "It's COLD here"
kokhmmm says, "Cold in Milwaukee too!"
Severy-1 says, "It's cold here as well! And it's going to be snowing in a
few hours..." dcarson says, "talking 3-6 inch of snow tonight" dcarson
says, "more where Randall is probably" saavik says, "yeah, I'm very jealous"
saavik says, "the storm isn't predicted to hit here" Michael-1 says, "chip
proser is in the commons" Michael-1 says, "freezing rain here...."
Michael-1 says, "why am I so lagged...." Severy-1 says, "Freezing rain,
Michael? Yuck, I'm going to be driving through that tomorrow, heading down
your way..." john-r follows Severy-1 into the room
john-r says, "Evening"
saavik says, "yeah, it snowed here while I drove there and now that I am
here, it will snow there!" saavik shakes her fist at mother nature's irony
saavik says, "Maybe I wil get my wish and get snow after all" Arthur
arrives.
Arthur says, "Hi all"
Arthur reads the meeting agenda
john-r says, "we hadour first snow today-lovley and nice" dcarson reads the
meeting agenda
Scottyg has arrived.
saavik says, "where are you going randall?" Arthur says, "Looks like last
weeks agenda..." saavik says, "we've had 4 snows already :-)" Severy-1 is
updating the agenda now
Severy-1 says, "I'm driving to South Carolina tomorrow morning, Amy"
Michael arrives.
saavik says, "Michael is lost :-)"
Michael reconnected
saavik says, "oh, fun, I hope Randall"
Michael says, "really laggy connection... this seems better" Michael says,
"well.... no.... this sucks too...." Severy-1 says, "Ok, agenda updated"
Arthur reads the meeting agenda
saavik reads the meeting agenda
john-r says, "reade agenda"
Michael says, "oh well, lets go ahead... maybe it'll get better." john-r
reads the meeting agenda
dcarson reads the meeting agenda
saavik says, "I nominate john to get farther ahead there - he keeps not
getting called on until we are all tired!!" saavik says, "unless the other
stuff is short tonight?" Severy-1 says, "We seem to have lost Chip, he may
be having trouble logging in with a real account" Severy-1 says, "The other
stuff should be shorter tonight, I hope" saavik says, "ok :-)"
Severy-1 says, "I can't stay really late either, I have packing and other
stuff still to do tonight :-(" Arthur says, "Anybody seen ian?"
saavik says, "isn"
saavik says, "err isn't he on travel?"
john-r says, "Thats Ok Amy :) other issues relate to my area and need done
to enhance what i would like to do, " Arthur says, "Thought he'd be back
for tonight - something I wanted to ask him..." saavik says, "yeah well,
isn't he the reason for item # 1?" Arthur says, "Well, I'm discovering it's
hard to get anything done with volunteers in December..." Severy-1 says,
"Ian is *supposed* to be here tonight" dcarson says, "I know orgs that just
don't even try" Arthur says, "By the way, for anybody that didn't know, we
have an extra distraction (baby boy born last Sunday :-)" Scottyg says,
"Its hard to get anything done with volunteers anytime. December is just
worse. :=)" Michael found a way cool free machine shop today.... two full
CNC machine centers, unlimited use for a mere $46 per quarter.... Arthur
says, "Hey, good deal!"
john-r says, "Michael per quarte what?" dcarson says, "he all settled in
Arthur?" john-r says, "year inch ??"
Michael-1 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Michael-1. Michael says, "year"
Michael says, "its a local trade school...." saavik says, "Congrats arthur!"
Arthur says, "Well, he's home - last night wasn't a good sign though ..."
saavik says, "no sleep yet?"
john-r says, "Congrats to Arthur"
Arthur says, "Thanks!"
Arthur says, "He's sleeping next to me right now... we'll see how long this
lasts!" Severy-1 says, "Ok, without Ian or Chip, I guess we'll need to skip
the first agenda item and return to it if they show up" Scottyg says, "Your
first Arthur?"
Michael reads the meeting agenda
Severy-1 says, "So let's start out with the Help Desk status" Severy-1
says, "Our track record on "one reply per week" is not very good, folks"
Severy-1 says, "The only responses sent since the last meeting were sent by
Peter, John, Mike, Dana, and Arthur" saavik only remembers when Randall
reminds her Severy-1 says, "That's less than half the people in the
council, we've got to do better than that" Severy-1 says, "We're not
gaining any ground on the backlog of messages in the system" saavik is
embarassed but wishes for a cron job to remind her? Severy-1 reminds
himself to remind Amy every chance he gets :-) saavik also has no idea what
to say to much of the messages Scottyg says, "I've handled a couple outside
the system." Severy-1 says, "We'll help, just ask whoever is around for
advice" saavik says, "ok... will do next time I am reminded ;-) Right now
I'm filling out a grocery list and trying to take notes" Severy-1 says,
"Did you copy the mailbox address, Scotty?" Arthur says, "Actually, the
only backlog really is the info list, I think" dcarson says, "I'm tempted
to write a homework template" Arthur says, "As in, search google?"
Scottyg says, "Nope, that would have created a new thread." saavik says,
"yeah, please do"
john-r wonders if some could meet next wed to review the info mail list, as
the others are someahat under control Severy-1 [to Scottyg]: Not if the
subject includes the thread ID Scottyg says, "No, it was completely outside
the system." dcarson says, "search google and links to useful sites" Arthur
says, "Scotty, can we set a time to get together on membership stuff? I'm
having trouble staying logged in to the MOO unless I'm active..." Scottyg
says, "When I process a membership, I send an email from my personal email.
I got a direct reply." Arthur says, "Ah, here's Ian"
saavik says, "please do Dana"
dcarson says, "OK"
irs arrives.
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Ian"
Severy-1 says, "Hi, Ian!"
irs says, "Never mind, Randall. I think I figured out who to follow. Hi
all. Sorry I'm late." Arthur says, "Maybe next Wednesday would work, around
8 or 9 pm?" john-r [to Arthur]: 8 0r 9 is fine by me Scottyg says, "Arthur,
I have meetings every Wed." kokhmmm says, "ok by me"
Severy-1 says, "Amy, you can also turn on overnight notifications in your
Help Director user info, that way you get a daily reminder of what needs to
be done :-)" Arthur says, "Is another evening good Scotty? Saturday?
Tuesday?" saavik says, "oh, really? Sure"
Scottyg says, "What time zone are you in Arthur?" Arthur says, "Eastern -
you're central right?" Scottyg says, "Yep. How about Saturday morning, 9:00
your time?" Arthur says, "Ok, that would be fine, yes!" Arthur says, "See
you here!"
Scottyg says, "My evenings are somewhat unpredictable." Michael looks at
his toes and shuffles his feet..... saavik reads the meeting agenda
Severy-1 says, "Ok, I think that covers everything on Help Desk stuff,
unless someone has something else..." Severy-1 says, "MOving on to Team and
Mailing List Infrastructure..." Severy-1 says, "With Mike absent, there
isn't much to report" Severy-1 says, "Mike is working hard on overhauling
the teams and mailing lists, but it's not quite finished yet" irs reads the
meeting agenda
Severy-1 says, "So I'm holding off on unveiling the My Moon Society and
Teams pages until that effort is finished" Severy-1 says, "So let's move on
to MMM issues" Severy-1 says, "Peter, can you summarize the main issues
that need to be resolved there?" kokhmmm says, "Okay, here is the
situation. Last year, Scotty made a proposal in May 2001" kokhmmm says,
"That we prepare a pdf issue of each MMM to help solve the high cost
problem of postage overseas" kokhmmm says, "Overseas rates were spiraling
well over $2 a copy" kokhmmm says, "Scotty suggested the Moon Society pay
LRS $12 per member per year for hardcopy, as usual, and $3 per member per
year for pdf." Scottyg says, "Not correct Peter"
kokhmmm says, "I have a copy of the email." Scottyg says, "I'm looking for
my email on the subject. BRB." Arthur says, "It sounds reasonable to me -
we deal with electronic subscriptions all the time that are a substantial
fraction of the print cost..." saavik says, "Ok..."
saavik says, "(sorry)"
kokhmmm says, "Meanwhile, this February we changed our treasurer. He asked
about the payment arrangement, and I told him we were getting $3 per
electronic subscription. But I do not receive the money so I didn't really
know" kokhmmm says, "The situation now is that I have been outvoted 2-1 on
the LRS Board. I want to continue sending the pdf file irregardless. They
have asked me not to until the matter is investigated" kokhmmm says, "Their
point is that even if there is no cost to sending the pdf file, (other than
the $264 for the software and occasional tech support at $25 a crack) it is
still an LRS product and LRS has a right to compensation." Arthur says,
"Does anybody else from the board remember negotiating this with Peter?"
kokhmmm says, "This matter embarasses me terribly and puts me in a conflict
of interest situation." Scottyg says, "Ok, here was the complete proposal."
Scottyg says, "Let me begin by saying that we are presently paying LRS
$1.25 flat rate for MMM." Scottyg says, "That was adopted prior to May
2001." Scottyg says, "In May 2001, i proposed that the rates be as
follows:" Scottyg says, "Electronic publication $3.00 anually. ().25 per
issue)" Scottyg says, "Should be 0.25 per issue." saavik says, "Uh, do we
really want to save postage stamps for some guy?" saavik si reading the
info box
Scottyg says, "US & Canada members hardcopy - $12.00 anually (1.00 per
issue)" Scottyg says, "Other members by hardcopy - $36.00 anually = $3.00
per issue." Michael has disconnected.
Scottyg says, "Based on the above, I ran some what if analyses and there
was little net difference in income to LRS, so i didn't pursue the matter."
Scottyg says, "And LRS never accepted the proposal." john-r has reconnected.
Scottyg says, "So we have continued at the $1.25 per issue ($15.00 annual)
per hardcopy issue." kokhmmm says, "I did not realize the offer was
withdrawn. In the present climate where about a third of the membership has
shifted to electronic version, it does seem to matter." Arthur says, "What
are the hardcopy and non-hardcopy numbers right now?" Scottyg says,
"However, the trend has been toward a slow shift toward more electronic,
less hardcopy, so the what-if might be different now." Arthur says, "I just
counted 294 members in teamdir (current members)" kokhmmm says, "Current
MMM hardcopy Moon Soc list is 175" Scottyg says, "That sounds about right,
and we had 175 hardcopy last month" saavik says, "Ok, I finally pick a
thread to answer and it is owned by someone else but the screen shows it
isn't. hmm" kokhmmm says, "I think what happened is things got mixed up
when we had the printing costs crisis this past February" Scottyg says,
"Peter, your treasurer should be able to confirm that we are paying $1.25
per copy." Arthur says, "Peter, sounds like at $15/hardcopy you would still
be ahead of $12/hardcopy + $3/electronic, until the electronic outnumber
hardcopy..." Arthur says, "Why were we reducing from $15 to $12 for
hardcopy?" Scottyg says, "That came to $218.75 last month." The housekeeper
arrives to cart Michael off to bed. dcarson says, "used to be a flat amount
even if overseas" Scottyg says, "I don't accurately know the mix of
domestic vs international members, but would guess at around 6 or 8 to 1"
kokhmmm says, "I am calling him now. yes, he says." dcarson says, "but then
overseas postage jumped a lot" kokhmmm says, "Ithought that in Feb this got
rolled back." kokhmmm says, "Let me say that I did not want to raise this
issue. It is my fellow board members who have been beating me over the head
with it for months." Scottyg says, "At 8:1, thats 22 int members and 153
domestic." kokhmmm says, "There are less international copies now, perhaps
only a dozen, as most of them have switched to electronic when they
renewed." Arthur says, "Yes, counting the international ones then (
assuming there are 22) MMM would come out ahead under the new contract
right now, by about $360." Scottyg says, "Using the 8:1, your net income
would have been $248.75 for last month with the other formula." Scottyg
says, "Vs 217.75 under the current formula." Arthur says, "Even with a
dozen you're ahead under the new contract. " Scottyg says, "If its only a
dozen..."
Arthur says, "The other question, I think, is should we be trying to
sustain the hardcopy in the US and Canada? There seems no good reason to
encourage people to discontinue it, other than that we're paying Peter
more..." Scottyg says, "Itr comes out $228.75 under the 3-way formula."
dcarson says, "I think the electronic form should NOT be the default"
Arthur says, "Agreed!"
Scottyg says, "I'm gonna drag out a little more history." kokhmmm says,
"But this is my quandry. As a Moon Soc. Board member I can see the
advantage of encouraging electronic route as it keeps more money in the
Moon Soc treasury. That's why I say I have a conflict of interest. " Arthur
says, "understood"
john-r has reconnected.
kokhmmm says, "The client NSS chapters are currently paying $14.40. One
chapter is getting the electronic version for $5 (they offered, we
accepted.)" Scottyg says, "When the proposal for the electronic copy was
put forth, the board discussion included encouraging electronic
subscription since it saves the Moon Society money, making more available
to pursue other interests." Arthur says, "One of the helpdir emails was
from a teacher who had enjoyed handing around the paper copy in her
classroom, and sometimes had trouble with PDF's. There are definitely
advantages to sticking to hardcopy for now..." Scottyg says, "I think that
sentiment is why the default is for electronic copy." irs says, "Another
advantage to hardcopy is that people, in general, value a paper
whatever-it-is far more than an electronic one, even if the content is
precisely the same. We're offering a newsletter as a value to our members,
so it ought to be one that they'll value (also, it's easy to leave a paper
thing on the coffee table for others to see, or to pick it up again later;
not so with electronic)." Scottyg says, "But this board is certainly not
bound by the choices made before. I'm just trying to explain why things are
what they are." kokhmmm says, "I completely understand the need to save the
Society money. On the other hand, over the long haul, I think endangering
the survival of MMM as hardcopy could be quite counterproductive. " john-r
has disconnected.
Scottyg says, "An aside for those who weren't involved in the original
discussion. Internation mailing costs are about $2.00 per issue higher than
US. Thats why the $3.00 rate for international hardcopy." Arthur says,
"Peter, what are your bottom line numbers? What minimum mailing level is
needed?" kokhmmm says, "A bit of history, when ASI came aboard, we already
had a circulation of 300 domestic. Since then all client groups have
dwindled in numbers, and we are now below 300 even with the Society."
Scottyg says, "And the $0.25 per issue for electronic copy was intended to
help offset LRS costs other than printing and mailing, such as computer
software & supplies." kokhmmm says, "200 domestic copies are needed for
bulk mail. We were paying 23 cents postage. This month we went to barcoding
and got a lower rate. At first class, we would be overweight by more than
twice and would drastically have to cut the size of the newsletter to 10
pages max instead of current 20, and lighter paper." Scottyg says, "Or else
jump to $51 cents postage?" kokhmmm says, "Yes, plus lose some economoies
of scale for printing costs." john-r has connected.
Arthur says, "Peter, one way to think about it - if every subscription was
electronic, would the $3 x 300 or so cover your other costs besides
printing and mailing?" kokhmmm says, "If we then decided to go all
electronic, we would definitely lose some people." Arthur says, "Or does
that $3 need to be higher to balance things out?" dcarson says, "sounds
like we do need to encourage hardcopy then" Chippro has arrived.
Severy-1 says, "He made it, yay!"
Arthur says, "Hi Chip!"
Chippro says, "Hi, I'll have a vodka martini" dcarson says, "helo Chip"
Chippro says, "hi"
Scottyg says, "Stirred not shaken?"
Severy-1 says, "Chip, we're finishing up a discussion about the MMM
newsletter and then we can jump back to the images and video agenda item"
kokhmmm says, "I really do not know what we need to encourqage. I am
concerned about the trends, and I have two barking rotweillers on my
board." dcarson says, "/me hands Chip a martini" Chippro says, "okay, I'll
just sit quietly" kokhmmm says, "make mine whiskey on the rocks" Scottyg
says, "Actually, there are two questions..." Scottyg says, "One is the fee
structure to LRS. Peter, what is their proposal?" Scottyg says, "The second
is how we market the newsletter to our subscribers - hardcopy vs
electronic." kokhmmm says, "Hey, they are going for broke. Back payment of
$0.25 per pdf per month per person. That would be hard to calculate. I say
scrub that and start fresh." kokhmmm says, "What would solve everyhting is
a membership drive. We are arguing over a shrinking pie, and that's not
where we should be." Scottyg says, "Oh, we can pay back fees, but you also
lose $0.25 per copy since we have been paying that instead of $1.00."
dcarson says, "and we have been payinh more for the hardcopies" dcarson
says, "very true Peter"
kokhmmm says, "You are paying 5 cents more than NSS chapters." Scottyg
says, "As I said, when I ran out the calculations a year ago, it was a near
wash." Scottyg says, "It looks like present numbers might favor the 3-way
structure, but there isn't a big difference." Arthur says, "Well, I'm sure
Peter cares about $100+ per year..." Scottyg says, "I would guess probably
not much more that $100 net over the year." kokhmmm says, "It's my
treasurer who cares. If I cared that much about money, I wouldn't be so
happy being poor." Scottyg says, "The only problem in going back is that
I'm not sure we can identify how many intl members we had each month."
Arthur says, "But the problem is, if we go below the bulk rate, that will
bump costs for them by about .30 per issue, or about $600/year for Moon
Society members." Scottyg says, "Arthur, thats a separate problem. Lets
take one at a time." Scottyg says, "Peter, if your board wants to switch to
the new fee structure, I'll support that." Scottyg says, "I think I oppose
any retroactive adjustments since the proposal was never accepted by LRS."
kokhmmm says, "I agree with Scotty that it will be difficult if not
impossible to calculate any past amount due. For myself, I would be happpy
with a deal that recognizes the pdf version as an LRS copyrighted product
for which a fee is reasonable. " Severy-1 says, "FYI, for those of you late
in arriving, there is a new command in the recorder you can use to catch up
on everything that has been said so far in the meeting: play current on
recorder" kokhmmm says, "Scotty, I think we do have to get a better handle
on who and how many have selected the electronic option, if only to have an
email notification list for when each new issue is uploaded." Severy-1
says, "So it sounds like the top priority is to work out a new agreement
between LRS and the Moon Society?" Scottyg says, "Peter, any of us can
download the entire database into a spreadsheet and run any sort of
analysis we want." Scottyg says, "And Randall can easily change the monthly
report filter to report by category." Arthur says, "How about Peter comes
back next time with a proposal from LRS (either the one Scotty found or an
amended one?" kokhmmm says, "But we need to email people when the issue is
available. I'll bet that quite a few have selected the electronic option
and are expecting it to arrive by email, not knowing that they have to go
online and fetch it. I have gotten several emails to that effect." kokhmmm
says, "Some ask "when will MMM resume publication, it's been several
months?"" kokhmmm says, "Is there anything on the join page that tells them
how to get their pdf edition?" dcarson says, "an email with a link to this
months issue is a good thing, with a way to opt out if they don't want it"
john-r says, "That is my concern on MMM, i "thought" i was to rec MMM In
e-mail" Severy-1 says, "Yup, I'm working on an automatic notification
procedure for the PDF file" Severy-1 says, "I didn't have a chance to work
on it before this meeting with everything else going on, but I'll get to it
before the next meeting" Arthur says, "Great, that'll solve one problem
there!" Scottyg says, "We should probably review the notification emails we
send. That would be the place to explain what to expect." kokhmmm says, "I
think the first proposal round should come from the Society. I do not have
the negotiating confidence of my board." Arthur says, "On the default - I'm
not sure we have to switch the default, but I think the page could be
clearer. Are the https pages in wsd or something else? Can I propose a
modified version of the page?" Severy-1 says, "Ok, we need to move on soon,
what action items can we make for the MMM stuff?" dcarson says, "Scotty
resends the proposol to LRS?" Scottyg says, "Arthur, there is an https
version of WSD that controls publication there." Severy-1 says, "There is a
separate secure WSD installation for that site, Arthur" dcarson says,
"Randall get meail notification working" Scottyg says, "Peter, you already
have our proposal, but I can send it again." Severy-1 says, "Please do,
Scotty, just to make sure" kokhmmm says, "I'll have to work with our board
to see if I can get them to compromise. No promises." Scottyg says, "Send
it to Peter?"
kokhmmm says, "I have it, no need to send it unless it is modified in some
way." Scottyg says, "Nope. There have not been any changes on our side that
would support a change." Scottyg says, "And I think its what you said they
wanted at the beginning." kokhmmm says, "I'll talk to my people and get
back to you. All I can do." Scottyg says, "$12.00 hardcopy and $3.00
electronic. You just left out the part about $36.00 intl hardcopy."
Severy-1 says, "Ok, anything else on MMM we need to cover tonight?" kokhmmm
says, "The thinkg is that the !.25 rate was suggested as averaging out
domestic and foreign, it does not address the value of the pdf edition at
all. Tht said, let's move on." john-r says, "are we going back to Item 1?"
Severy-1 says, "Ok, moving *back* to the Images and Video agenda item"
kokhmmm says, "The number one thing is to build a library of art to which
the Society has full rights" Severy-1 says, "I've lost track of who first
proposed this agenda item, the questions raised are: "Decision on how to
gather such art - ask Vik for something else, or Phil Smith, or other
contacts? What sort of video could we offer?"" kokhmmm says, "Vik wants
royalties, that is the problem" john-r says, "did Vik get royalties for his
past work?" john-r says, "for ASI that is"
Severy-1 says, "Ian, you're in charge of PR, and Chip has a lot of
experience in this area, so this agenda item is aimed at the two of you
:-)" Chippro says, "Sorry I'm late. Could you tell me what the main purpose
is..." irs says, "Ah, OK. Yeah, it was probably my proposal, because I keep
getting press contacts (magazines, newspapers, tv, and so on) who want
images to go with the stories. So we need some images, and paying royalties
on them is not an option. We need images we own that we can give to the
press to use to represent the Artemis Project." irs says, "Video would be
wonderful, but even still images would be a great help at this point."
Chippro says, "Can you require them to give credits?" irs says, "It wasn't
so much an agenda item as "Does anyone have any idea on how we can get some
images?"" Chippro says, "What exactly are the images of?" irs says, "Nope,
can't require credits. We can ask for it, but since the images would be
used to illustrate the Artemis Project, it would sort of be implied."
Arthur says, "habitat, equipment, ..."
irs says, "When a reporter calls me to interview me about the Artemis
Project (for whatever story they're writing/producing), in addition to my
words, they want images to go with it. Perhaps a picture of our proposed
Moon base, or of our spacecraft... something along those lines." Chippro
says, "And do you have a number of artists who have done these?" Arthur
says, "Peter, you have a collection of MMM sketches that go way back -are
they useable?" kokhmmm says, "I have a bigger suggestion which will solve
many problems, this one included. In the My Moon Page we allow people to
create personal profiles that include talents, abilities, expertise etc. If
this were put into a searchable database we'd find our artists and model
makers, and cartoonists, and project managers, etc. etc." kokhmmm says,
"The MMM sketches are all line art, two dimensional, plans and elevations.
I neverl learned how to draw from perspective." Chippro says, "And are
these owned by us?" kokhmmm says, "There owned by MMM/LRS but there are
free for the taking" irs says, "No, Chippro, we don't have the images (but
for Vik's, and the agreement with Vik is that he owns the images, and we
have to pay to use them; my whole point is we need images that we own)."
Chippro says, "I have images that I am willing to have used. I would like
to have people directed back to my site." Severy-1 says, "We started
building such a database, Peter, called the New Volunteer Interview System,
but it never was finished" Chippro says, "You could barter something to get
people to do variations of your drawings." Chippro says, "make it a
contest, give them a free membership" kokhmmm says, "Chip, got your email
today. Bookmarked the page for further investigation. Thanks." Chippro
says, "When you say you have to own it, is that so you can distribute
without paying, not to actually make money from the images, right?" kokhmmm
says, "In a contest, the organization who runs the contest owns the
submissions." saavik has disconnected.
saavik has connected.
A transporter beam sparkles and saavik disappears With a sparkle of
transporter light, saavik appears saavik says, "Sorry, my moo client died"
irs says, "Right, Chippro. I'm talking about images we can distribute for
free to news media when they ask for something... to represent the Artemis
Project, as opposed to space flight in general." Arthur says, "
http://www.asi.org/images has a lot -are they mostly Viks?" irs says,
"These aren't things we'd be selling." Chippro says, "I think you could get
subrights, say to a small image, with a link back to the artist so somebody
could buy a poster." john-r says, "there are several artists in the image
files" kokhmmm says, "Arthur, those images have many authors, each ane is
listed. Greg contributed a lot." dcarson says, "but we need to be able to
give it to a newspaper what might crop it and not give any credit on it"
Chippro says, "you can put a bug in the corner" dcarson says, "so that has
to be OK with the artist" Chippro says, "when stations pick up video from
an outside source, there is a bug in the lower right corner giving credit
to the originator." kokhmmm says, "Another way, expensive, is to commission
a piece of art. Then we own it absolutely." Chippro says, "I take it
there's no money to actually pay an artist?" kokhmmm says, "But by
commisioning, we get to set the content and have control." john-r says,
"Arthur and Peter - is Phil willing to give us free use for his images?"
kokhmmm says, "We don't have to rely entirely on the treaurey. We could ask
members to give special donations for the purpose of buying or comissioning
artwork" irs says, "Yes, one tv station will credit another, but you may
have noticed that the art they use in original stories doesn't credit who
they're talking about. Although the art frequently could only be referring
to one company/story, and that's the type of art we need." Arthur says, "It
sounded like it - I haven't heard from him for a while though." kokhmmm
says, "I don't know about Phil's needs. Arthur?" Chippro says, "Is there a
list of things you would like illustrated that you don't have?" Arthur
says, "Has anybody here ever commissioned something? How much would it
likely be? Several hundred dollars?" Arthur says, "Or thousands?"
irs says, "Don't have specific images in mind. I'd be happy with almost
anything." john-r says, "Ian, would 3 images be a good start, for you PR
contacts needs?" Chippro says, "could we narrow that down a bit?" kokhmmm
says, "There re "starving artists" who will deliver - we just have to find
them" Chippro says, "I have a picture of my dog." irs says, "However, off
the top of my head, I'd like an image of the first mission on the lunar
surface, and perhaps of the spacecraft in spafce. Beyond that, a far-future
image of our base, with a farm dome and such." john-r says, "i have a
picture of my woods in snow :)" irs says, "Three images would be great,
John. At this point, I'd settle for even one." Arthur says, "The other
option is - there are lots of NASA images out there, some from the Space
Exploration Initiative in the ADB (I just noticed) - are we free to use
them?" Chippro says, "I believe NASA is paid for by us. They are free."
kokhmmm says, "All NASA images are public domain, I believe." Chippro says,
"But they must be credited." irs says, "NASA images are not what I'm
talking about. We need images that convey "The Artemis Project", NOT "man
in space"." Chippro says, "1. pay them."
Arthur says, "Right..."
Chippro says, "2 or give them something " kokhmmm says, "Agree. We need Pat
Rawlings type of stuff." Chippro says, "Would you use an image if you
didn't own it but had the right to use it?" kokhmmm says, "There are plenty
of artists out there doing only electronic stuff, backgrounds for video
games, etc. We have to look in wider circles." john-r says, "so offer 50 or
100 to Vik, has anyone discussed that with him, for the specific needs of
Ian and the press?" Chippro says, "If you can write up a list of what you
need and what you can offer for it I can post it to all the 3D artists
sites." Scottyg says, "We have money in the bank, and we could afford some
modest fees to obtain rights if this is where our priority lies." Chippro
says, "You would need to include the line drawings or verbal descriptions
for accuracy." john-r says, "if i had a vote on the board, i would agree to
some part of our "funds avail"" kokhmmm says, "Back to Arthur's queston
about MMM illustrations - I did produce a 3-D table model of a lunar
homestead connected to a pressurized street. It could serve as a basis for
a painting that would look ahead to early settlement. Those of you who were
at ISDC 98 saw it." john-r says, "Peter do you have a picture of 98 ISDC
stuff that you can e-mail or post on the web-team pages? or the Leaders
Pages"" Scottyg says, "I'd like to bring a related issue into this. I think
we are all agreed that increasing membership is our #1 priority. Any
argument?" kokhmmm says, "What the table top model referred to would
produce is the Popular Mechanics type of cuttaway illustration - and I
think that would be great" kokhmmm says, "Membership growth is no 1 and
retention also." Scottyg says, "Yeah, I meant the two together." dcarson
says, "membership #1 yes"
irs says, "Makes sense to me, Scotty."
john-r says, "I can do cad sections, elevations and plans for 1 mill a
second to view or free :)" kokhmmm says, "Yes I have stuff to post. Do so
tonight. A good photographer could do better." Chippro says, "What we need
is a Request For Art, with a fee for the winner and a free year's
membership. Make it a constant contest on a 3D art site and it also
functions as PR." john-r says, "but better come after anykind of start
Peter" Chippro says, "Each Month a new subject." Scottyg says, "We need to
develop a strategy to address this. The artwork we are discussing here is a
piece of that puzzle, but only a piece. And when we start talking about
spending money, we need a plan that includes other avenues." john-r says,
"I think Chip just made a good point!!" dcarson says, "that does sound like
a possibility Chip" Scottyg says, "(This = membership)"
Chippro says, "You need a master pr plan " john-r says, "contest and PR"
john-r simes at Chip, we have lots of plans Chippro says, "You need to push
ASI at the media, not just sit back a give them what they ask for. They
don't know what ask for." john-r says, "smiles"
Chippro says, "You need to set the agenda." kokhmmm says, "On publicity. I
inquired about ads in Ad Astra (circulation 25,000) but apparently NSS
doesn't want ads from "competitor" organizations." Chippro says, "I saw
their media expertise at the convention. Not one local news channel."
kokhmmm says, "Chip, they reach 25,000 mmebers." Chippro says, "over and
over again."
Arthur says, "space.com might be better... what's the going rate for web
ads?" Chippro says, "The purpose is....? To increase membership?" Arthur
says, "or slashdot?"
kokhmmm says, "It would be nice if we could advertise our art contest to
those people, maybe pick up members in the process." dcarson says,
"slashdot we might try just submitting a story for something like the
contest" kokhmmm says, "Let's develop a shortlist of places to advertise
for free. Internet will be most of it." Arthur says, "kuro5hin has
cheaptext ads, and 30,000 readers" Chippro says, "How many people in ASI /
MS?" Scottyg says, "Chip, we have lots of ideas about getting into space,
but only very meager resources to actually DO something. It has seemed to
us the best approach to increasing those resources is to increase
membership." Scottyg says, "Current membership is about 300." Arthur says,
"294 at lasy count"
Arthur says, "last"
kokhmmm says, "Out of over 1200 who joined, poor retention" Scottyg says,
"(There are a few not yet entered in the database.)" john-r [to saavik]:
have you had any time for the list of 10K items (thinking ahaead) dcarson
says, "if we do a contest we can submit it as a story to various sites,
slashdot, kuroshin, daily illuminator etc." john-r says, "Dana - do ther
charge a fee ?" john-r says, "they"
kokhmmm says, "No prize no contest. Can be a gift, a coupon, a trip, not
necesarily cash." saavik says, "well, the 10K stuff was part of this John.
The idea was the raise publicity and get more members by showing progress"
saavik says, "But it hasn't gone very far" dcarson says, "not for stories,
they may not run it" Chippro says, "I have a project to train kids in 3D
imaging for space. Its at
http://www.stickymedia.com/UMoon/connectedclass.html I am happy to teach
you all 3D Imaging." dcarson says, "but worthwhile trying, and people pay
attention to stories unlike ads" Arthur says, "That's definitely another
option..." Chippro says, "As an ex-local newsperson I am happy to come up
with a story and images and a notice of the contest." Arthur says, "Who'll
be the judges? We should probably select a subgroup here to organize this,
if we really want to do it." Chippro says, "What I need is an idea of how
many people we can reach... our 300, the database from NSS? Databases from
other societies? We need to know how many lunatics there are." Arthur says,
"If we actually had a story, would Ad Astra run that (rather than an ad)?"
dcarson says, "All you can is submit a story, up to the editor if they run
it" Chippro says, "For $600 approx, you can put out a story on the PR wire
and any number of publications can pick it up." Chippro says, "You need to
tie things to real events such as transorbitals getting the go for a moon
flight." saavik says, "amy turns into a pumpkin shortly" Arthur says, "Ok,
I think we have the beginnings of an idea on the imagery - I'd like to
nominate Chip, Peter, Ian, Dana, and myself to organize this - any other
volunteers?" Chippro says, "Say, you do 12 images, one a month, then you
have pr for a year and a reason for people to come back again and again to
check on who's winning." irs says, "Guess I'm sort of stuck with it, so
yeah, I'm in." Chippro says, "Any member can vote on the best pic. Decision
of the judges is final." Chippro [to vote]: you have to become a member.
kokhmmm says, "How about we do this as a joint venture between LRS & Moon
Society (maybe as part of solution to previously discussed problem) - LRS
is an NSS chapter and that may open a door, and we might be able to
contribute front money." kokhmmm says, "Scotty, sent you email on that."
irs says, "The problem with that, Peter, is that the concept is that the
Moon Society needs images it owns that it can distribute at will." dcarson
says, "so we submit a story about a NSS chapter doing a contest to As
Astra, thats sneaky Peter, I like it" Arthur says, "Ok - first thing next
meeting we should report back with a plan and a budget." irs says, "If
they're co-owned, we're back to needing permission from someone else before
I can distribute them." kokhmmm says, "Co-owned on paper, we waive all
permissions to you." Chippro says, "and a list of what needs to be
illustrated and where I can find the description or drawings." Arthur says,
"Not necessarily - joint copyright doesn't necessarily require agreement of
all copyright holders." john-r has reconnected.
dcarson says, "lets discuss the whole ting in email for next meeting?"
Arthur says, "Yup!"
john-r says, "yup to"
dcarson says, "on to 10K before Amy pumpkins" Severy-1 says, "Any updates
on the 10K ideas, Amy?" kokhmmm says, "or loses a glass lsipper .." kokhmmm
says, "slipper"
Chippro says, "Gotta go. Missing John Steward and my kids need the net for
homework. I will come up with a plan by next week, okay?" kokhmmm says, "I
think the way to a $10 K project is to leverage from step to step. Say we
get a great piece of art, then we do a model, then a walk through etc."
Arthur says, "Ok, send email to leaders@moonsociety.org" Severy-1 says,
"Ok, thanks, Chip!"
Chippro says, "bye, later"
john-r says, "Thanks Chip"
Chippro has disconnected.
saavik says, "I vote for putting it farther up on the agenda next time"
saavik says, "I'm sleepy :-)"
saavik says, "No updates anyway"
saavik says, "Nothing has changed - that is the problem" Arthur says, "Did
you talk to Vik?"
saavik says, "Only briefly"
saavik says, "He is moving along"
john-r says, "things are changing - we are meeting :) regular - just too
many priorities" saavik says, "yeah, etc :-)"
saavik says, "err exactly"
saavik says, "I'd love to see the idea help us gain members and further the
dream" saavik says, "but right now it is lounging" Arthur says, "What would
we talk about with it higher on the agenda?" saavik says, "Well, 1) is rthe
idea doable 2) how to raise money for it 3) how to pick the projects 4) how
to market it" Arthur says, "Ah, ok"
saavik says, "5) How can this dog sleep in my lap while I type? It's beyond
belief :-)" Arthur says, "Hey, at least you get 2 hands free with a dog
:-)" john-r says, "Pets are a wonder :)"
saavik says, "true :-) and diapers"
Scottyg says, "I have a suggestion about the agenda. To prevent the same
topics from falling off the end repeatedly, we should reverse the order
each meeting." saavik says, "I like that idea Scotty"
Arthur says, "Seconded"
kokhmmm says, "me too"
john-r says, "me too"
kokhmmm says, "thirded"
saavik says, "or make it a list instead of a stack" john-r says, "noooo"
saavik says, "either would work (then we would start with me and then john
next week)" The housekeeper arrives to cart Chippro off to bed. saavik
says, "no?"
john-r says, "it needs an order"
saavik says, "yeah, exactly..first in, first out. a list" Severy-1 says,
"Sounds like a good idea, Scotty, I'll take care of it" saavik says, "right
now it is first in last out" Arthur says, "Amy's thinking computer science"
john-r says, "other wisw we talk on specifi items and never get around to
those that are not as funn" saavik says, "oh, I see, john didn't get my
joke... yes, arthur got me" john-r says, "wise"
john-r says, "oops"
saavik smiles.
saavik says, "so are we adjuourned?"
john-r says, ":)"
dcarson reads the meeting agenda
Arthur says, "Alabama?"
john-r says, "The have a need for 25 dollar to 50 dollar grants for
teachers" Scottyg says, "Can we at least find out what this on is about?"
Severy-1 says, "I think we should adjourn the official meeting, but
conversation can continue as always :-)" john-r says, "do i continue my
e-mails with them, or should a board member , or shouid i copy the leaders
list, which then gets too full" kokhmmm says, "okay. Is the continuing
conversation reported in the log?" john-r says, "i hope so"
Severy-1 says, "Until the recorder is turned off, yes, Peter" john-r says,
"i am ok with gen discussion" john-r says, "are we ajourned then from reg
meet?" Scottyg says, "If the recorder is left running, it will be
recorded." Arthur says, "Ok, I'll second adjournment too." dcarson says,
"aye"
irs says, "I'm up for adjourning."
john-r says, "aye"
saavik says, "aye"
kokhmmm says, "aye"
Severy-1 says, "Ok, we're adjourned"
irs says, "Good night, gang."
john-r says, "Nite Amy"
saavik says, "night"
Arthur says, "Good night!"
john-r says, "Nite Ian"

-- End log: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 11:24:08 pm ASI Meeting Server time --

-- Start log: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 11:27:21 pm ASI Meeting Server time --

Severy switches places with Severy-1
john-r says, "Scotty do we have any special form to fill out, for a group
to request a mini-grant? "" kokhmmm says, "speaking of grants and long term
needs, why not see if we have people who want leadership training. There
are grants available for that." john-r says, "Peter, you mean a grant that
i can request, for leadership training?" The housekeeper arrives to cart
saavik off to bed. kokhmmm says, "Yes, John"
john-r says, "is it close at hand to e-mail a url ?" john-r [to surf]: a bit
The housekeeper arrives to cart irs off to bed. kokhmmm says, "No, I am
jsut generally aware of this, would have to do a lot of homework." john-r
says, "thats ok, i was curious, no need for research-we gots lot to do
here" john-r says, "any way _Scotty did you see my question" Scottyg says,
"John, no."
kokhmmm says, "On artwork and Artemis Project. We could use a Poular
Mechanics type cutaway illustration of crew at work, play, sleep inside the
Artemis Moonbase Module - that carries it past what Vik has done" john-r
says, "cotty do we have any special form to fill out, for a group to
request a mini-grant? """ john-r says, "Scotty do we have any special form
to fill out, for a group to request a mini-grant? """ Arthur says, "From
peter just now here:" Arthur says, "On artwork and Artemis Project. We
could use a Poular Mechanics type cutaway illustration of crew at work,
play, sleep inside the Artemis Moonbase Module - that carries it past what
Vik has done"" Arthur says, "Sorry, talking to James in the Commons at the
same time... he might be interested in the contest..." kokhmmm says,
"Continuing on Artemis Art, next a scene of crew attaching additional new
modules, maybe an inflatable, or a greenhouse, etc." kokhmmm says, "And
crew operating equipment aimed at demonstrating processing and other profit
earning ventures" kokhmmm says, "We need near term Artemis stuff first,
then further into the future." kokhmmm says, "Randall, geting back to the
Volunteer Survey, one expertise it would be helpful to identify is grant
writing" john-r says, "I agree with needs Peter, we 1st need an artist
willing to draw the 3-d stuff" kokhmmm says, "And someone to "browse"
grantor institutions for promising opportunities" Arthur says, "Where was
the volunteer survey located? Are the files still extent, just needing a
bit of work to make available? Can it be an extension of the membership
application somehow?" john-r says, "Peter-Iyou are central time zone?"
dcarson says, "we tend to be data packrats, I'm sure we have the data"
kokhmmm says, "I think it can be rebuilt if we make filling out the survey
and creating a profile part of the menu on the My Moon page" Greg-1 has
disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Greg-1. kokhmmm says, "Probably much of
what data was collected is moot - on members who have lapsed" kokhmmm says,
"Yes, John. Central. It is 10:41 here" john-r says, "its 11: 41 in Indiana,
so our meet here tormorrow 8 your time 9 my time< i will e-mail you when i
get connected - OK?" Arthur says, "I need to be getting to bed (baby is
currently sleeping, after being taken care of by Mom again...)" Arthur
says, "Good night all!"
john-r says, "Nite Arthur"
Arthur leaves.
kokhmmm says, "Okay, John, see you tomorrow." john-r says, "Ok Peter"
john-r says, "Good Nite all"
john-r goes South.
kokhmmm says, "I better turn in too, I am a morning person and morning is
on its way." kokhmmm says, "Good night all"
kokhmmm has disconnected.
Scottyg says, "good nite!"
Scottyg has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to cart kokhmmm off to bed. The housekeeper arrives
to cart Scottyg off to bed. Michael arrives.
dcarson says, "helo"
Michael says, "hiho... connectivity finally came back..... did I miss
anything interesting?" dcarson says, "nothing that bi"
dcarson says, "big"
dcarson says, "discussion on MM pricing" dcarson says, "and discussion on
getting art we own so Ian can use it for PR" Michael reads the meeting
agenda
Michael says, "anything substantive on the 10k ideas?" dcarson says, "brief
update from Amy, we're putting it earlier in the last next time so she
isn't falling asleep" Michael says, "ok... I'll review the minutes
tomorrow....its to late to do anything else tonight" dcarson says, "ok,
gnight"
Michael says, "cya"
Michael has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Michael off to bed. dcarson goes home.
Severy-1 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Severy-1. Scottyg has arrived.
Arthur has arrived.
Arthur says, "recorder is recording?"

-- End log: Saturday, December 7, 2002 9:07:44 am ASI Meeting Server time--