-- Start log: Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:21:18 pm ASI Meeting Server time-- 

Michael says, "mike, there's also significant evidence that many climactic
fluctuations are caused by variations in our orbit around the sun. There
are oscillations in our orbit that periodically compound themselves and
cause us to be either closer to or farther away from the sun." Severy
switches places with Severy-4
Arthur says, "Peter, he had that a few minutes ago -
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/08/05/popsci.mars.earth/index.html"
kokhmmm says, "Elections - the email went out on 8/4 with several typos -
mea culpa - MMM# 167 August pdf was sent out yesterday with typos
corrected. MMM hardcopy goes to press tomorrow. " kokhmmm says, "So far I
have 8 returned ballots (filled in) and a couple of dozen bounces." MikeD
says, "Michael, I've been fighting the "global warming" stuff for years. I
also fought the ozone hole theories. I just don't buy everything the
scaremonger media says" Severy-4 says, "As for the meeting agenda, the date
hasn't been updated, but I think the agenda itself is still appropriate for
tonight's meeting" MikeD reads the meeting agenda
Arthur says, "[on global warming] Physics Today this month had a nice
discussion of how the geophysicists have had to gradually accept climate
changes on faster and faster time scales since the 1950's." Michael says,
"wow, I didn't realize that... did you know the Sun is in orbit? Its not
stationary with respect to the rest of the solar system. It to orbits the
solar systems center of mass...." Arthur reads the meeting agenda
irs reads the meeting agenda
Michael says, "sorry... i haven't gotten deeply into orbital mechanics
yet..." Severy-4 says, "Although Arthur had a couple of additions to the
agenda that he suggested earlier in the Commons" Arthur says, "things that
came up..."
Severy-4 says, "Although MoonSims no longer needs to be on the agenda, as
all references to the Moon Society have been removed from the MoonSims
sites" Arthur says, "Yay!"
kokhmmm says, "Thanks, Arthur"
Arthur says, "Thanks"
kokhmmm says, "Michael, the center of mass for the solar system lies within
the Sun's body, but displaced from the center of the Sun towards Jupiter."
john-r arrives.
john-r says, "hi all"
dcarson says, "sol, jupiter and assorted debris is one description of the
solar system" Michael says, "hence it wobbles...."
john-r says, "i just got home,and have a quick supper with wife" MikeD
says, "This all sounds very complicated for when we do those missions to
the outer planets" Arthur says, "Although the references haven't gone from
moonsims.asi.org or asi.org/moonsims..." Greg-1 says, "That's right,
Arthur."
Scottyg-3 says, "This organization has no authority over ASI." Severy-4
says, "That's an issue for ASI to deal with, which is a different meeting
:-)" Arthur says, "No, I meant those pages still credit the Moon Society
and point to it." Greg-1 says, "What pages, Arthur?"
kokhmmm says, "The Sun's wobble is like that in other stars caused by
massive planets, and that is how we detect them. The wobble shows up as a
variation in radial velocity that can be read in the stars spectrum."
Arthur says, "http://moonsims.asi.org/ and http://www.asi.org/moonsims/"
Arthur says, "Unless it's my cache - hold on" Severy-4 says, "Try a
refresh, Arthur"
Arthur says, "Whaddya know - ok, thanks!" Michael reads the meeting agenda
Michael says, "btw, I'd like to apologize for not having made several of
the recent meetings.... I hope things will change after next week...."
Scottyg-3 says, "And while I'm thinking about it, I might miss the next
meeting due to travel." Arthur says, "I'll be in Idaho for the next mtg too
- but may be able to connect, depending on if my laptop is repaired in
time..." Scottyg-3 says, "If it comes off, I'll be out of the country."
kokhmmm says, "It's 40 some minutes into the first hour and we have not
begun!" Severy-4 says, "Well, first up is Elections, care to start us off,
Peter?" kokhmmm says, "Elections - the email went out on 8/4 with several
typos - mea culpa - MMM# 167 August pdf was sent out yesterday with typos
corrected. MMM hardcopy goes to press tomorrow." kokhmmm says, "So far I
have 8 returned ballots (filled in) and a couple of dozen bounces." Arthur
says, "Sounds like everything's in line with elections then?" kokhmmm says,
"I set the deadline for returned ballots at October 1st, same as last year,
so that should put us back on schedule after our late start." With a
sparkle of transporter light, saavik appears saavik says, "um er, hi"
Severy-4 says, "Hi, Amy!"
saavik says, "I forgot it was wednesday night due to the traveling :-)"
saavik says, "And I likely can't stay ..." saavik says, "how goes?"
saavik reads the meeting agenda
Arthur says, "Anything else with elections?" kokhmmm says, "That's all I
have. Voting so far is light." Severy-4 says, "Nothing more from here,
thanks for getting that done, Peter!" Severy-4 says, "Ok, moving on to
membership processing" Severy-4 says, "How are things progressing with
James, Scotty?" Severy-4 says, "And what's the status on the automatic
e-mail renewal reminders?" Scottyg-3 says, "I'll take those in reverse
order..." Arthur says, "afk for a couple of minutes" Scottyg-3 says, "I
completed the 5 versions of the reminder emails and gave you the file
names. Are those activated now?" Scottyg-3 says, "(Randall)"
Severy-4 says, "Did you send the file names and times in an e-mail?"
Scottyg-3 says, "No, I gave them to you on the MOO." Severy-4 says, "I
remember you mentioning that, but I wasn't in a position to implement it at
that moment :-(" Severy-4 says, "So it's buried in a MOO log somewhere..."
Scottyg-3 says, "In any case, the file names indicate the times." Scottyg-3
says, "Just a minute, I'm navigating." john-r reads the meeting agenda
Severy-4 says, "Ok, I see them, there are five of them, correct?" Scottyg-3
says, "Yes. The plus or minus in the name is the number of days before or
after expiration date." Scottyg-3 says, "(minus -> before)"
Severy-4 says, "Ok, I'll get those set up right away" Scottyg-3 says, "Ok.
As for James...."
Scottyg-3 says, "Things are not going as well as we might hope." Scottyg-3
says, "His medical problem causes him to have episodes during which he is
not able to accomplish much." saavik has to run - sorry
Scottyg-3 says, "Those happen unpredictably." saavik has disconnected.
Severy-4 says, "Are they lengthy enough to cause major inconveniences?"
Scottyg-3 says, "Not too long after he took on the job, he had one of those
occur and I don't think he's fully recovered yet." Scottyg-3 says, "They
can sometimes lst two or three months." Scottyg-3 says, "las = last"
Scottyg-3 says, "Oops lst=last"
Severy-4 says, "Uggh, I didn't realize they were so incapacitating" kokhmmm
says, "Yah, Scotty, the 1st shall be last!" Scottyg-3 says, "So he's not
keeping up as well as we would like, but he's not completely
incapacitated." kokhmmm says, "Does he want us to find someone else?"
Scottyg-3 says, "I think he understand what we want, but there were a
couple of occasions while I was training him where he was drifting away and
I'm not sure he got it all." Michael wonders if arthur just submitted an
article to RF... Scottyg-3 says, "He hasn't asked to be replaced."
Scottyg-3 says, "But he feels badly about the way things have gone."
Severy-4 [to his]: credit, it's still better than what was happening before
he took over Severy-4 says, "To his credit, it's still better than what was
happening before he took over" Scottyg-3 says, "And I'm a little fuzzy
about lines of authority." Severy-4 says, "If we had a better alternative
at the moment, it might be worth considering, but I don't think anything
has changed in that area to date" The housekeeper arrives to cart saavik
off to bed. Scottyg-3 says, "Isn't Arthur membership chairman?" Arthur
says, "Yup, just caught up reading " Arthur says, "James just logged in"
Arthur says, "Scotty, what are the main areas of concern? The membership
entries in teamdir seem reasonably up to date" Arthur says, "At least,
they've all been in there when I've looked at answering help messages"
Arthur says, "Is it paper mailings that are the problem?" Severy-4 says,
"Yes, Arthur is in charge of Membership Services. I think you were stuck
with getting James up to speed because you are the only one who knew what
Jennifer did" Scottyg-3 says, "I think its probably the postal mail and
incentives he's running behind on. Plus he was not updating the last-paid
date in Team Director, so some of the reports were screwy." Arthur says,
"Ah. Yeah, there's a bunch of manual data entry there." Scottyg-3 says,
"(That last was my fault - i forgot to tell him.)" MikeD says, "Oops"
DaveW-1 arrives.
Arthur says, "Hi Dave"
DaveW-1 just got home
DaveW-1 reads the meeting agenda
Scottyg-3 says, "Anyway, the training is done, but since some of it was
done while he was "fuzzy", it wouldn't hurt to go over it again, maybe with
Arthur present so there is backup." Arthur says, "Well, the new reminder
messages should be a big help for members we have emails for." dcarson
says, "if done online loggoing and filing for next time won't hurt" Arthur
says, "Yes, that would be fine - schedule a date/time by email if you
like." Scottyg-3 says, "Ok. Thats all I have Randall." Arthur says, "I've
actually done some of the teamdir data entry and did the credit card
processing for a while (Scotty trained me on some of that) so I'm a bit
familiar, but a review would be good." Arthur says, "Lunar directory?"
Severy-4 says, "I don't have any updates on the invitation template, I just
ran out of time" john-r says, "same here on getting.. "
john-r says, "the e-mail list to Randall" Severy-4 says, "Bruce forwarded
an e-mail with another organization that we should invite to the Lunar
Directory" kokhmmm says, "Do we have a list of who has been contacted
and/or invited, John?" kokhmmm says, "And a list of organizations suggested
but not yet contacted?" Arthur says, "There are also some listed here:
http://editors.dmoz.org/Science/Technology/Space/Space_Colonization/"
john-r says, "no one has been invited, waiting on template" Michael thanks
Arthur for the link under chats and forums john-r says, "we have e-mails in
outreach for those to contact" kokhmmm says, "That's a great list, Arthur!"
kokhmmm says, "Ahh! I see you are the editor of the list!" Arthur says,
"Yup - Syliva Engdahl (young adult SF author) was the previous editor"
MikeD says, "What happened to her?"
Arthur says, "Oh, nothing, just didn't have any more to add" kokhmmm says,
"How soon will the templates be ready so we can proceed/" Arthur says,
"Randall, do you need help with the templates?" Severy-4 says, "I should
have them done within the hour, Peter" Arthur says, "So John will send when
ready?" john-r says, "Arthur, i will be able to help some with lunar dir,
bit not till after aug 22 or so, when i get a newer maching, i am on a 8
mrg mem, and things are realll slow" john-r says, "machine"
john-r says, "8 meg ram"
john-r says, "been a bad month for computing :(" Arthur says, "Peter's
sending them then, or Randall?" dcarson says, "biab"
Arthur says, "Or can any of us invite somebody we want? I guess we need a
list to track it..." Severy-4 says, "Oh, you mean the Lunar Director
template, Peter?" Severy-4 says, "I should have some time this coming
weekend" Severy-4 says, "I thought you were asking about the membership
renewal templates (sorry, too many references to templates tonight :-))"
john-r says, "Randall what twill be ready in an hr??" john-r says, ":)"
john-r says, "ahh i see now"
Severy-4 says, "Any of us can invite anybody, I wanted to have a generic
template available to use as a starting point for those invitations" Arthur
says, "right, ok"
john-r says, "so anything else on lunar dir?" kokhmmm says, "But we ought
to have some way to know if someone else has invited so and so before we do
the same." john-r says, "good point Peter"
Severy-4 says, "Agreed, Peter, we should keep a running list in the
/private/leaders directory" kokhmmm says, "Sounds good."
john-r says, "and i feel we need the template BEFORE asking, so we are all
on the same page" Severy-4 says, "Yup"
john-r says, "can i go get ice creame :) please" irs says, "Non sequitur:
Got an e-mail from a com.br . What country is br?" With a sparkle of
transporter light, saavik appears saavik is baaack
john-r says, "wb Amy"
saavik says, "thx"
kokhmmm says, "Ian, Brazil?"
Severy-4 says, "Hi, Amy!"
MikeD says, "Is there a way to use the list you just mentioned as a
database, flag oned that have been asked, that way you could use the list
to send out a regular, if small, mass email" Scottyg-3 says, "Brazil?"
Severy-4 says, "Anything else on the Lunar Directory?" john-r says, "MikeD
we would need the databse set up , and thats timeeee" irs says, "Thanks."
saavik reads the meeting agenda
Scottyg-3 says, "Setting up a database is easy. Writing scripts to access
it is what takes time." saavik wonders where we are in the agenda MikeD
says, "Seems to me, we have loads of time as none of us is flying to the
Moon tomorrow" Severy-4 says, "Finishing up Lunar Directory, Amy" john-r
says, "Lunar Directory"
john-r says, "Timae as in other priorites, do you have time for database
and scriots??" john-r says, "for MikeD that is "
With a sparkle of transporter light, saavik appears MikeD says, "Nah, no
time for scriots"
saavik-1 says, "read recorder"
saavik-1 says, "err"
john-r says, "LOL"
MikeD says, "Hate scriots, they're like idiots" Arthur says, "Flyer etc. -
I think that's a Greg/Ian thing?"
------------------------------
| | john-r holds up a BIG sign: | john-r sends smoke signal to Greg :) |

|______________________________________| MikeD says, "Hmm, maybe Ken has
time for scriots" MikeD says, "I mean scripts"
john-r says, "Ken who?"
Severy-4 says, "Yup, Flyer is a Greg/Ian thing, any news from that duo?
:-)" irs says, "I downloaded the flyer. Insufficient time to rewrite, but
I've started. There were also another document or two I was to do, but I
don't remember what or where they are (some sort of trifold, I think?)."
Severy-4 says, "Trifold and storyboards" Scottyg-3 says, "Barbies
boyfriend?"
john-r says, "Barbie who ? :)"
kokhmmm says, "Ken's girlfriend"
saavik notes that she will also miss next meeting MikeD says, "I don't
think Barbie would have the Ken I'm refering to" dcarson says, "Ken the
enthusiastic?"
saavik says, "(i'm catching up on the recorder)" irs says, "Tell me again
where I find the trifold and storyboards." john-r says, "Ken in the gen
list?"
irs says, "Oh, I remember."
MikeD says, "Ken the ever so enthusiastic who seems to be 49" irs says, "I
had links to them, but they didn'" irs says, "...but they didn't work. Got
good links for me?" Greg-1 says, "<blink> The flyer? Do I have an action
item that I am conveniently overlooking?" MikeD says, "John, it was meant
to be a joke, but it took too long to explain" irs says, "Forget it, Greg.
I've got it for now. When I'm done, I'll get you involved." Greg-1 says,
"Thanks, Ian."
irs says, "De nada."
kokhmmm says, "Ian, http://nsschapters.org/hub/exhibits.htm#storyboards"
saavik-1 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove saavik-1. Severy-4 will be away from the
keyboard for the next 15 minutes, can someone else take over for that time?
saavik says, "what is left?"
saavik says, "I don't want to take over not having been here..." Severy-4
says, "I sent an e-mail to Ian and Greg with the URLs to the flyer,
trifold, and storyboards, should I resend that e-mail?" dcarson reads the
meeting agenda
irs says, "Yes, please, Randall."
MikeD says, "What's left is the rescheduling of all meetings to 6pm British
Summer Time" saavik says, "LOL, what time would that be for us?" dcarson
says, "what time is that here?" Severy-4 says, "Will do, Ian"
MikeD says, "About 1pm"
irs says, "Thanks."
Severy-4 disappears for about 10-15 minutes john-r says, "MikeD understood
aon Ken, But 6pm your time is never kand here in induana" irs says, "1pm
the market is still open. You won't see me." dcarson says, "next should be
outreach" saavik suspects that dana took over
MikeD says, "Ian, my comment was not meant to be taken seriously" Scottyg-3
says, "Ok, grant opportunities with Transorbital....." Scottyg-3 says, "I
think we just finished Outreach Dana." dcarson says, "ok"
Scottyg-3 says, "Or were at least in the middle of it." john-r reads the
meeting agenda
Scottyg-3 says, "Oh - wait, you're right." Scottyg-3 says, "(I was mixing
up flyers and images)" Scottyg-3 says, "Who is working Outreach?" MikeD
says, "I thought that was Arthur" kokhmmm says, "Depends on what you mean
by outreach. Chapters/Outposts to public? Society publicity? " dcarson
says, "ok"
kokhmmm says, "Even lunar directory is a form of outreach" john-r says,
"the item for the agenda, refers to Ian needing images and video for
publicty" dcarson says, " - Outreach efforts (including Images and Video
for publicity)" Scottyg-3 says, "I think the immediate action needed was to
prepare materials that could be handed out for publicity." kokhmmm says,
"That means finding new artists" john-r says, "i agree with scotty"
MikeD says, "Images and Video was that guy in LA right?" john-r says, "Chip"
Arthur says, "Chip"
irs says, "Yep, still needing them. Might also add I'm looking for a small,
tabletop model of the proposed first landing site (think of the bottom
portion of the poster as a one-foot by one-foot, three-dimensional model."
Scottyg-3 says, "Chip Poser."
Arthur says, "Haven't heard anything for a while from him" john-r says,
"and he has time and again asked for a budget" Arthur says, "Peter has that
I think"
dcarson says, "Ian do you have a table at worldcon this year?" Arthur says,
"Oh, not one foot by one foot" MikeD says, "I think hi name might actually
be Proser but poser sounds better" Arthur says, "But we used something from
Peter at ISDC this year" kokhmmm says, "Ian,
http://nsschapters.org/hub/exhibits/artemismoonbase_model.htm" irs says,
"No table at WorldCon. Most probably not going, either. (Budget problems,
and transporting stuff across the border makes dealing, uh, prohibitive)."
kokhmmm says, "and http://nsschapters.org/hub/exhibits/moon_marsscapes.htm"
dcarson says, "we're going, will take flyers if you want" kokhmmm says,
"Both items can be made to fit your cubic square foot" Arthur says, "Any
thought of using images from the lunar base design workshop last summer?
Susmita Mohanty in SF has some rights to them; I've got a CD with all that
stuff on it too." kokhmmm says, "Ian, Arthur and Randall have seen my
model, had it in San Jose. I could make you one, given time." irs says,
"Dana: flyers will be on their way to you." irs says, "Arthur: don't know
anything about the workshop or the images." Arthur says, "
http://www.lunarexplorers.nl/LBDW/" Arthur says, "I mentioned it in the
long summary of ISDC I sent you" john-r says, "Arthur, i think Ian needs
something we can use at will, or at least permiantat unlimited use, so we
do not have to ask permission every time" irs says, "Peter: I can't make
the model for myself right now. I know we discussed it, and my soonest
scheduled need is the first weekend in October (I'm Editor Guest of Honor
at Context). If you can make one, I'd be very happy. If I can make one
before then, I'll be satisfied, too." Arthur says, "and wrote up a review
here: http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2003/7/8/14579/93376" irs says, "Ah,
the ISDC summary. Yes, that's about the be read (I've been otherwise
occupied of late, working on the magazine)." Arthur says, "Yeah, I know."
irs says, "John: prezactly. We need images that WE own, completely." Arthur
says, "but we don't seem to be making a whole lot of progress on that, and
maybe should look at alternatives?" kokhmmm says, "Ian, I will be on the
road last week of Sept to mid-Oct. May have trouble getting it to you. I'll
see." irs says, "We're both busy, Peter. Eventually, it'll get done. I was
just bringing it up in case someone else had something (or, at least, to
add it to my wish list)." irs says, "Arthur: I need images that we own in
order to be able to give them to the media to let them use. The whole
problem with the images we have is that Vik needs to give permission (or
get paid) for each use, and NO news outlet is going to want to deal with
that." Arthur says, "Right - but maybe we can get a different license with
Vik or some of these other things. Otherwise we're going to have to pay
somebody something to create an image, unless one of us is really up to
it?" saavik has disconnected.
irs says, "It's part of a great idea we were using at the start: volunteers
would maintain partial or complete copyright, to be able to benefit by the
work for ASI. Unfortunately, that concept is incompatible with news media,
which we need for real publicity/pr." Scottyg-3 says, "Can someone take on
the task of contacting Vic and asking if he will sell us the art?" irs
says, "Last time I discussed it with Vik, the concept was a non-starter."
Scottyg-3 says, "Or sell us an unlimited license?" Arthur says, "I'd be
happy to ask ..."
MikeD says, "Sounds like we need to hire someone to do the art" john-r
says, "a reminder... on art and giving to us..." john-r says, "we have non
profit status, someome may be able.." john-r [to use]: a writeoff... maybe
Scottyg-3 says, "Another possibility is an agreed per-use fee, payable by
us, not the publisher." irs says, "Vik's a New Zealander. That wouldn't
even affect him." john-r says, "rats"
MikeD says, "That from what I've heard is a tricky area John" irs says, "No
can do, Scotty. It's too much of a headache, and nearly impossible to
account for/keep track of." Greg-1 says, "Yeah. That probably wouldn't do
Vik any good, though. He's in New Zealand." john-r says, "rats again"
irs says, "Please realize, I'm not trying to be obstinate. I'm simply
laying out what I need to do better publicity." john-r says, "for new
artists , it may help" dcarson says, "if we had to pay him a percentage of
anything we got paid would probably work but we need to be able to say sure
print that picture" Scottyg-3 says, "The cleanest arrangement is an
unlimited license for a specific time period." john-r says, "understood
here, Ian"
MikeD says, "Most of tose would want cash and royalties John" Greg-1 says,
"Perhaps what we *really* need is more sources of artwork." john-r says,
"maybe MikeD, one nevers kbows till one asks" The housekeeper arrives to
cart saavik off to bed. kokhmmm says, "Why don't we just put out a request
on the website for donated art? It's a great way to volunteer." MikeD says,
"I used to be able to do a little bit, when I had a decent computer, but
I'm not in Vik's league" Scottyg-3 says, "Arthur, if you want to contact
Vik, I would suggest we ask for a yearly unlimited license, renewable
year-by-year by mutual agreement." Arthur says, "Ok, I'll send him a note
suggesting that." Scottyg-3 says, "That way, if the art becomes valuable,
Vik can ask for higher fees. Meanwhile, we can use it as needed." john-r
says, "does anyone here have a problem with a home page call for volteer
art work?" Arthur says, "No - it could fit in next to the image of the day
or something maybe?" john-r says, "yup"
Arthur says, "I mean no problem"
MikeD says, "I don't have a problem with it John, but don't hold your
breath while you wait" irs says, "What Mike said."
Scottyg-3 says, "No problem here, but not very high expectations either."
john-r says, "Peter can you write something, and i can put it on the home
page?" kokhmmm says, "I can try. I'll be incommunicado for the next week."
john-r says, "nothing ventured nothing gained, and a web update is min
time" MikeD says, "You might actually get a better response from
artemis-list" john-r says, "maybe by the next meeting then" john-r says,
"good point MikeD"
MikeD says, "And btw John, that kind of art takes quite some time to
produce" Scottyg-3 says, "As for Chip's question about budget...We're all
so inexperienced (Withe the possible exception of Ian) that I don't think
we know what would be reasonable." kokhmmm says, "We could even start an
Art team" MikeD says, "We have one already Peter." Scottyg-3 says, "I think
we should ask him for a suggestion." john-r says, "Peter, true, IF we get
some volunteers<sp>" MikeD says, "It hasn't had any traffic in 3 years"
MikeD says, "The Team Leader is Vik"
kokhmmm says, "Ouch!"
irs says, "Reasonable is as cheap as possible. I'm probably the rock bottom
of paying markets with the magazine, and I pay $50-$75 for single use
rights for interior art (covers by negotiation, and even I can't get away
for less than $300 for single use). And all-rights deal with a competent,
semi-professional artist will probably be orders of magnitude more." MikeD
says, "His private art and game team is a little more active, but not much"
irs says, "I'm not gonna be able to stay up too much later: I've been
having trouble sleeping, and the market opens early in the A.M." john-r
says, "bzzzz"
kokhmmm says, "Let's go to next item so Ian can go to bed!" irs says,
"Arnold Schwarzeneggar vs. Larry Flynt. See it live and for free (if you
live in California)." john-r says, "my sleep bell is going off also" john-r
reads the meeting agenda
Scottyg-3 says, "Ok, grant opportunities with Transorbital." Scottyg-3
says, "Who is working this?"
john-r says, "Is michael avail for update on Tranorbital?" john-r says,
"Michael"
kokhmmm says, "Before you all disappear, I want to put on next agenda the
idea of student memberships at $25 with electronic MMM only. We need this
to get young people and campus chapters." Scottyg-3 says, "Is Michael
awake?"
Arthur says, "I agree with Peter - perhaps should be even less (half
price?)" kokhmmm says, "Up to Scotty"
MikeD says, "And possibly some incentive for senior citizens too" john-r
says, "there is something in the by-laws on having diff classes of
membership, just not complete" Scottyg-3 says, "It flies at about $20."
kokhmmm says, "Yup, we never got around to this issue." kokhmmm says, "$20
would be great. Can we schedule a board vote for next time?" john-r says,
"i am 50, can i get senor citzen rate :)" MikeD says, "NO"
john-r says, "polll leeze"
MikeD says, "Gotta be 65+"
Scottyg-3 says, "Peter, I would prefer a discussion at next meeting and a
vote at the one after. I need time to take a specific proposal and run an
analysis." kokhmmm says, "Okay, thanks Scotty."
MikeD says, "John, if we gave you a $20 rate at 50, then we'd have to give
3/4 of out membership the same rate" john-r says, "if scotty is ok with 20,
then next meeting just needs a vote yea or na, and we can all think on it,
the vote needs to be for school and senor" john-r says, "i was a kidding on
50 :)" MikeD says, "Scotty has to run the numbers to see if it's viable"
Greg-1 says, "It sounds like a good idea to me." Scottyg-3 says, "There are
related issues john - like incentives - that all have to be decided before
I can work out our cost." Greg-1 says, "We'll need to wait until we're sure
we're not losing money at that rate." john-r says, "as in electtronic or no
mmm ?? right" Greg-1 says, "Right."
john-r says, "understood on related issues" Scottyg-3 says, "As in posters,
bumper stickers, etc." MikeD says, "there is no "no mmm" option" Arthur
says, "$20 sounds great"
john-r says, "thats why we need to think on it" MikeD says, "MMM can't
afford a "no mmm" option" Arthur says, "It would also be nice, for
recruiting members, to once in a while have a low-price membership drive
going on for a limited period - one quarter say... if we ever choose to
advertise, we should time it so people can join at a discount rate" Greg-1
says, "I'd prefer to have a member-recruit-a-member program." Greg-1 says,
"And have the discount go to the recruiter." john-r says, "and to see of it
works, the join page can say for a limited time, or ftill say 2005 or
something, to see if all the pieces fall into place" MikeD says, "That
sounds better to me"
Arthur says, "We can do that too"
Greg-1 says, "That way we don't create resentment among those who paid more
for their subscriptions." MikeD says, "I prefer Greg's idea"
Greg-1 says, "... and we don't have people waiting for the next cheap
period to join or renew." dcarson says, "at one time I think we mentioned
adding a month for each member recruited" irs says, "Discount membership
rates are NOT a good idea, in my experience. It engenders bad feelings
among current members (why can't I drop my membership and then get the
cheaper rate?) and results in a lot of one-year members (who aren't
cost-effective)." Greg-1 says, "Dana, yes, I remember that." Arthur says,
"Hmmm, I vaguely remember discusisng this before. I know some other
organizations do it though, quite successfully. Maybe I should find a model
and look into it more." Greg-1 says, "I'd be willing to make it as high as
whatever Scotty thinks we can afford." Scottyg-3 says, "I think three
months might work, but that's an off the-cuff answer." john-r <- we snuck a
agenda item in>
kokhmmm says, "(chuckle)"
Arthur says, "The problem with that is it relies on the efforts of our
existing members to bring new people in. People don't like to proselytize,
in my experience, especially not for a measly $15 ..." MikeD says, "There
might be another sneak item too" MikeD says, "We seem to have a little
problem with certain Team pages" john-r says, "which is what? MikeD"
Greg-1 says, "Yeah."
john-r <- we are in fact waiting on Michael> Greg-1 says, "Enough
sneaking... it's past my bedtime." Scottyg-3 says, "We're giving up on
Michael." john-r <- rats we are caught-bummer>
kokhmmm says, "Is ut 9:19 or 8:19 in Las Vegas?" MikeD says, "What do we do
about those ASI (in particular) team pages that link to teams that have
never been setup" Greg-1 says, "It's 8:12 in Las Vegas, according to my
watch." irs says, "I'm gonna have to get some sleep. For those who care,
Schwarzenegger announces his candidacy in an interview on Jay Leno tonight.
Unfortunately, I'm probably gonna be asleep (political junky that I am)."
Scottyg-3 says, "Team and mailing list infrastructure....I'm not even sure
what this one's about." john-r says, "Thats a MikeD item"
john-r says, "TY Ian for the reference" john-r [to ]: Lenno
MikeD says, "Well, we thought the Team and Mailinglist infrastructure was
ok, but it has come to light today that people are trying to join teams
like Ground Support, which was never setup" john-r says, "and MikeD just
mentioned an item" Scottyg-3 says, "Ok, so the overall topic is to clean up
the dead teams?" john-r says, "MikeD is ground support team set as
inactive?" MikeD says, "And btw, I see no reason to setup a Ground Support
team this far before the mission" Arthur says, "Another Michael, yikes!"
john-r says, "Kinda Scottyy, its a general review type item, in my mind
anyway" MikeD says, "These aren't Dead teams Scotty, these are teams that
never existed" MikeD says, "They seem to be placeholders for future teams"
john-r says, "MikeD where are they geeting the list to join from??" john-r
says, "getting"
Scottyg-3 says, "Yeah, I guess you have to be conceived before you can
die." MikeD says, "Ahhh, places like
http://www.asi.org/adb/06/08/pt-join.html" MikeD says, "Michael Martinez
listed the pages he found them on" MikeD says, "
http://www.asi.org/adb/06/07/" MikeD says, "And"
MikeD says, "http://www.asi.org/adb/06/08/pt-join.html ," MikeD says, "
http://www.asi.org/adb/06/08/osf-index-pt.html ," MikeD says, "
http://www.asi.org/adb/06/08/sdd-members.html" kokhmmm says, "Mike, all we
have to do is put the header "suggested teams" on that and similar pages."
MikeD says, "Perhaps"
john-r says, "MikeD thats to me an ASI Leadership meeting item, the adb
needs some (abunch) of TLC" irs says, "Suggested teams. Are you interested
in coordinating one?" MikeD says, "http://www.asi.org/adb/06/08/pt-join.html
actually has a pulldown menu of mostly nonexistent teams" Scottyg-3 says,
"Or "Planned Teams""
irs says, "Always take an easy opportunity to ask for volunteers." kokhmmm
says, "I suggest we do that, because that might get people to volunteer to
start such teams. They may or may not take off. If someone wants to start a
team and can define its goals, I will be glad to print same in MMM" MikeD
says, "We don't need volunteers for those teams right now. We've got more
important things to do. Like survive and grow" john-r says, "but the
members -now- seem to want different things to dooooo" kokhmmm says,
"That's part of growing. If we aren't doing anything, what's the sense of
staying with it. If we look busy, we will grow. If we play dead, we won't."
Scottyg-3 says, "But Mike, to survive and grow, we need to be doing things
that interest our members." MikeD says, "But do we really want to have our
few core members working on stuff like:" MikeD says, "Lunar Transfer
Vehicle Project Team " MikeD says, "Descent Stage Project Team " MikeD
says, "Lunar Habitat Project Team " MikeD says, "Ascent Stage Project Team
" MikeD says, "Robotic Element Project Team " MikeD says, "Ground Support
Element Project Team " MikeD says, "SSTO Concept Design Project Team "
MikeD says, "Microlander Project Team " MikeD says, "Lunar Sample Return
Project Team " irs says, "When a volunteer offers to do a job, unless it's
actively detracting from the whole, you accept graciously (and hope they'll
grow into doing something more important)." john-r says, "but if a team is
asked for, we need so a leader and goals, and maybe a leaders council
review, BEFORE we start a new team" MikeD says, "I agree, but do we have
the human resources to deal with all thses" john-r says, "if we have a
leader, maybe we have some of the man power" john-r says, "a team leader
that is"
kokhmmm says, "Maybe not with all. we list them as options, let people pick
the winners." MikeD says, "We need people in the admin areas at present"
john-r says, "true"
irs says, "I'm gonna have to get going." john-r says, "Nite Ian"
kokhmmm says, "Only those people who want to do admin stuff will volunteer
for admin. That leaves out those who might be interested in other stuff."
john-r says, "MikeD- How many request have you had??" MikeD says, "Ok, this
sounds like it will be a fairly lenghty discussion, so how about having it
somewhere in the first half of the next meeting" john-r says, "i can live
with taht"
john-r says, "that"
Scottyg-3 says, "Thats agreeable with me." kokhmmm says, "Okay, but is it
for Moon Leaders or ASI leaders?" MikeD hmms.
john-r says, "are we ready for the next item - Help Director?? i am behind
myself in that item" MikeD says, "Actually, it's kind of ASI really" MikeD
says, "So I should have left it to next week" kokhmmm says, "Let's do it in
ASI then" john-r says, "Peter Both, but mainly Moon Society, we may have to
have some asi type teams in Moonsociety- i think outloud here" Scottyg-3
says, "ASI is still trying to decide just what it's role should be." irs
says, "Good night, all."
irs has disconnected.
MikeD says, "The problem is the grey area" Scottyg-3 says, "ASI may
transfer all of these teams to Moon Society." john-r says, "grey areas are
likly the main problem areas" Scottyg-3 says, "Or not."
kokhmmm says, "I'll write up some ideas and send them out in email" MikeD
says, "There's an inevitable crossover, but some of those are definitely
ASI." MikeD says, "Some could be Moon Society" Scottyg-3 says, "ASI is not
equipped to deal with volunteers at present." kokhmmm says, "Teams that
deal with the Artemis Project should be ASI" MikeD says, "Those are all ASI
related in that case" MikeD says, "And if ASI can't deal with volunteers at
present, those pages should reflect that in some manner" john-r says,
"MikeD - that all mayyy be changing, is what Scotty is saying, Right
Scotty" john-r says, "Very good point MikeD"
MikeD says, "An example would be greying out the submit button and pulldown
menu" kokhmmm says, "Dealing with volunteers does not involve money or
dues. Don't see why those who are interested in the Artemis Project can't
form volunteer teams, if the core ASI leadership can manage them. That's
only issue." john-r says, "So i feel MikeD, a lot of the asi issues needs
discussed at next asi leaders meet" MikeD says, "Anyway, this is for the
ASI meeting, who do I ask to put it on the agenda" john-r says, "Michael,"
kokhmmm says, "Michael Mealing?"
MikeD says, "Peter the problem is manpower" MikeD says, "We just don't have
the people to handle it" john-r says, "but he may need help from Randall to
know how to edit the asi leaders agenda" The housekeeper arrives to cart
irs off to bed. MikeD says, "Even Moon Society doesn't have the people to
handle everything" john-r says, "Yes Michael Mealing, he is the asi board
chairman" john-r says, "MikeD, yes that is true, on admin and groth BUT
some how we have to keep curremy members happy and active in areas (tey)
are happy in, not an easy task i know" kokhmmm says, "Okay, I have to leave
for the night also. Goodnight all" MikeD says, "Some of those pages are
pages I never knew existed before tonight" john-r says, "Nite Peter"
kokhmmm has disconnected.
MikeD says, "Anyway, it's 4:30am here and I'm going to bed" john-r says,
"MikeD i have seen them, but have needed access to asi leaders, and the
bummer was i missed may and june meeting" john-r says, "Nite MikeD"
john-r reads the meeting agenda
MikeD says, "John, I understand what you're saying, I just know that having
people send out subscribe emails and fill subscription forms that go
unanswered is very very bad for our collective image" john-r says, "i think
we are are tired - DANA you want to call it quits?? or does anyone have any
other issues?" john-r says, "MikeD, i fully agree"
dcarson reads the meeting agenda
john-r says, "the time last year was help dir and moving team and such, now
we have the next phase" dcarson says, "I think we're done, remember to
check on things in help desk though" john-r says, "yes sir !"
Arthur says, "Ummm, I do want to discuss the removal of people from
artemis-list some time." john-r says, ":) with i smile i stand at
attention" MikeD says, "I have nothing of consequence in Help Dir" dcarson
says, "that would be at the ASI meeting I think" MikeD says, "That's a
dangerous subject Arthur" john-r says, "Arthur you mean remove people that
are not being nice" Arthur says, "I suppose. On the other hand, there is no
equivalent here in the Moon Society, and I have no standing with ASI."
Arthur says, "Well, no, the procedure by which people have been removed in
the past and should be in future, and reinstating one person in
particular..." Scottyg-3 says, "The list is shared by the societies. Any
input from Moon Society will be factored in." The housekeeper arrives to
cart kokhmmm off to bed. Arthur says, "I am very uncomfortable telling
people to join artemis-list when they may be, shortly thereafter,
peremptorily removed." john-r says, "i am lost wit that comment Arthur, i
know of no such thing, at least to date" Arthur says, "Somebody removed
David Jackson from artemis-list after his second post." Scottyg-3 says, "I
have felt for some time that Moon Society should have its own list,
controlled by its own policies." john-r says, "and this was when?"
Arthur says, "Without communicating that fact to leaders here, or to Mr.
Jackson himself." Arthur says, "Last week"
john-r says, "coud it have been an error?" MikeD says, "I know of 3 to
date. 2 in my time, one warranted, the other questionable to say the least"
dcarson says, "or the list manager (me)" MikeD says, "It wasn't as error"
john-r says, "bummer, my mail is still in a bad state, what did he say?"
Arthur says, "He started the MoonSims discussion" MikeD says, "There is
only one way to remove a person from a list without the listowner getting a
notification message" john-r says, "do we know who removed him?" MikeD
says, "Someone with ftp access"
Arthur says, "I assume it was Greg"
Arthur says, "David sent me a note yesterday wondering why artemis-list had
been so quiet ..." MikeD says, "Which is far from the case" john-r says,
"Then Scotty,MikeD or I can bring up to the asi leaders list, or ian dana
or greg or Randall" MikeD says, "If you recall Arthur, I mentioned to you
that I could not find his email address in the listfiles" john-r says, "I
take it jackson is a friend Arthur?" Scottyg-3 says, "I've tried to make
this point quietly a couple of times tonight, now I'm going to be
blunt......." Arthur says, "He used to live near here - but we never met."
john-r is ready for blunt
Scottyg-3 says, "ASI and Moon Society are separate organizations." Arthur
says, "Yes, they are"
Arthur says, "Is this issue sufficient to warrant a separate list?" MikeD
says, "I believe it might be"
Scottyg-3 says, "In any area where Moon Society does not like the actions,
policies, etc of Artemis Society, it is free to ask politely for a change,
or else to pursue its own course." Scottyg-3 says, "But it cannot dictate
to Artemis Society." Scottyg-3 says, "And for Artemis Society, Greg is
boss." MikeD says, "When we were discussing the possibility of respectfully
requesting, we were told not to start a TROLL event in the MOO" john-r
says, "i am in the dark on the jackson post, so i will have to catch up,
but it does seem to be an item for discussing a neew list" Arthur says,
"Who is boss here? Who speaks for the Moon Society?" MikeD says, "Um,
currently, Greg"
Scottyg-3 says, "I only know of all this 2nd hand, so I'm not gonna take
any sides." Scottyg-3 says, "But Greg isn't boss of the Moon Society. The
BOD is." john-r says, "as president, and Randall as board chairman, and to
me in the end , the entire board" Arthur says, "Why isn't the ASI Board the
boss at ASI?" Scottyg-3 says, "The same is nominally true of Artemis,
except Greg decides who is on the BOD." MikeD says, "Is artemis-list a
shared resource or is it a resource which Moon Society uses with permission
of ASI?" Scottyg-3 says, "The latter Mike. Thats why I feel that moon
society should have its own list." MikeD says, "I've been seeing this
coming for about 4 years now" Arthur says, "Alright, we do already have
moon-news@asi.org - I guess we need Randall in on the discussion. Mike, do
you know how to set up the majordomo lists?" Scottyg-3 says, "The two
organizations have certain areas of shared purpose and certain areas of
different purpose." MikeD says, "I know how to do it Arthur" Arthur says,
"Oops, that's moon-news@moonsociety.og" Arthur says, "or org"
Arthur says, "do we want to do something now, or plan a bit and do it in a
month or so?" MikeD says, "The question is more How would we announce it
and what way would we organize migration of subscribers" MikeD says, "Or
would we be permitted to migrate subscribers. I would expect so, as all
current ASI members are also Moon Society members" john-r says, "plan a
bit, and think on it, keeping in mind we are in the middle of elections as
a top item" Scottyg-3 says, "Yes, I would think you might start it up as a
copy of artemis-list." john-r says, "it may be per a list member choice to
move or join both" dcarson says, "warn people ahead of time in case want to
opt out but copying the subscriber lists seems to make sense" Scottyg-3
says, "I don't think we need to be hasty. Lets take a little time to think
about it." john-r says, "i think if we are wo organzations, a strait copy
may not be a wise move" MikeD says, "This is going to split the audience
still further" Scottyg-3 says, "And we should have a policy about the
procedure for removing people from the list." dcarson says, "yep"
DaveW-1 says, "I wonder if the same situation happened on a New Moon
society list would the outcome be any different" MikeD says, "It needs to
be a clearly defined set of rules that have to be followed by "all
concerned"" Arthur says, "Is ASI really all that attached to artemis-list,
or would it be willing to just transfer the list to moonsociety.org?"
Scottyg-3 says, "We are already two organizations." john-r says, "and the
policy needs an item or 2 with no warning, but noticafication and the rest
are with warnings" Scottyg-3 says, "One of the points I'm trying to make
tonight is that the Moon Society is supposed to be the space activist
organization while Artemis is supposed to be the research organization."
dcarson says, "someone want to write a proposed policy and post it to the
leaders list?" Scottyg-3 says, "And I think activity such as the moonsims
flap is clearly in the space activist area." dcarson says, "and after we
have seperate lists steer non research traffice to the moon list" MikeD
says, "Almost any mailing list or newsgroup rules would be suitable" john-r
says, "Scotty,that lelps clear some things up for me, ty :)" john-r says,
"so are we done for tonight?" Arthur says, "Scotty, that's a good way of
putting it. And a good reason why we should do this, but plan it well."
MikeD says, "In order to actually control the content of the posts on those
2 lists, it might be necessary to moderate the lists for a while" Arthur
says, "Which 2 lists?"
Arthur says, "Oh, I see - right"
Michael has disconnected.
Michael has connected.
MikeD says, "Actually, that would mean Moon Society gets to deal with Ken
and ASI gets to pass him off to Moon Society" Michael leaves.
Michael arrives.
Michael says, "gah! network problems...." MikeD says, "That's a lot of
coming and going there Michael" Arthur says, "Hey, wouldn't he be good for
some sort of research project?" MikeD says, "Yeah, as a subject"
Arthur says, ":)"
DaveW-1 laughs.
Arthur says, "Ok, we can continue this discussion on the leaders list. I'm
ok for now." MikeD says, "We can put him in orbit and check back with him
ever year to see how much looser his screws, er teeth, get" dcarson says,
"its after midniht and we've lots half the group already" dcarson says,
"lost"
john-r says, "bzzz"
dcarson says, "call it a night?"
MikeD says, "And the other half are lysdexic" john-r says, "nite all, its
been enjoyable" dcarson says, "move to adjourn"
DaveW-1 says, "second"
Arthur says, "Goodnight folks"
dcarson says, "aye"
john-r says, "Nite ALL"
Michael says, "nite!"
MikeD says, "Nite"
Michael goes home.
john-r has disconnected.
Scottyg-3 says, "Nite all."
dcarson says, "gnight"
MikeD leaves.

-- End log: Thursday, August 7, 2003 12:04:57 am ASI Meeting Server time --