-- Start log: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 8:40:50 pm ASI Meeting Server time --

john-r says, "ok, quiet , no talk of the missing leaders :)" john-r says,
"sorry, i could not resist" MikeD says, "there are a couple of people who
could generate the PDFs, but we'd need the source files of the mag" MikeD
says, "And has 'the shop' anything to do with Ken Paul?" kokhmmm says, "No.
Ken knows about my troubles. But the shop is CompUSA" MikeD says, "ugh"
MikeD says, "Would Ken be able to help with printing in any way?" kokhmmm
says, "You would need my word processor, exact version, Claris Works 5.0
and all the fonts I use. Ken tried it once without all this, and it came
out screwed up." MikeD says, "I figured there might be a problem there."
kokhmmm says, "Only if he has a printer I can use. Then I could at least
generate the mastercopy for the hardcopy version," dcarson says, "I have 5
somewhere, using 6 since thats native under OS X" MikeD says, "If someone
was able to generate the PDF then almost anybody could print it for you"
kokhmmm says, "I have both OS-X and Mac 9.2 on this machine. But I have
switched to 9.2 since it allows me to transfer files between the laptop and
the PowerMaqc 6500 "as is"" kokhmmm says, "If I use AppleWorks 6.0 on OS-X,
then when I am done, I have to save it as Claris Works 4.0, email it to
myself, download it on the PowerMac and open it in CW 5.0 -- too much
trouble." MikeD says, "Who are our Mac users?"
MikeD says, "Peter, Dana, Amy, Greg"
MikeD says, "Any more?"
dcarson says, "Arthur"
MikeD says, "What about Scotty?"
dcarson says, "windows and linux"
Scottyg-1 has arrived.
MikeD says, "Hi Scotty"
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Scotty"
MikeD will be right back.
Scottyg-1 says, "Hi all!"
john-r says, "Hi Scotty"
dcarson says, "helo"
Greg-1 arrives amidst thundering applause. john-r says, "Hi Greg"
Greg-1 says, "Evening, John! Et al!"
MikeD takes a pair of Rolaids
Greg-1 says, "It must have been a good night, Mike!" kokhmmm says, "Or a
good dinner?"
With a sparkle of transporter light, saavik appears john-r says, "Hi Amy"
saavik says, "Hi all"
saavik reads the meeting agenda
saavik says, "Term limits never made it onto the agenda?" MikeD says, "I
just woke up Greg"
MikeD says, "that last sentence could be interpreted two ways" saavik says,
"indeed"
saavik says, "I was wondering which one it was" MikeD says, "A better way
to say it would be: Greg, I just woke up." Greg-1 says, "LOL"
Greg-1 says, "Yeah. Keep it down! We old guys need our sleep.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" irs says, "Of course, if you're Yoda, it still might
be interpreted differently." saavik says, "is the meeting called to order?"
MikeD says, "don't expect intelligence from me at 2am" saavik says, "and
how does one edit the agenda?" Greg-1 says, "Not yet, Amy. You're welcome
to do so." saavik says, "(and why does it say it starts at 8:30 when it is
9pm that I thought we agreed on?)" irs says, "Actually, sleep might be a
nice thing (I didn't get home from the SFWA reception Monday night until
3am Tuesday." john-r says, "You edit the agenda in wsd express, want me to
add an item?" kokhmmm says, "The recorder has been on, recording nothing."
Greg-1 says, "I think that would be a question for our honorable chairman.
:)" saavik says, "yes, add something about the term limits idea greg
proposed a few weeks ago" john-r says, "back in a few"
Greg-1 says, "Oh, right! We still have yet to discuss that officially."
saavik says, "the chairman isn't here? But we do seem to have quorum. "
Greg-1 says, "It was just getting good at the last meeting." Greg-1 says,
"Amy, Randall delegated the gavel to you in his absence." Scottyg-1 says,
"The agenda is *actually* located at
http://www.moonsociety.org/private/leaders iirc." saavik bangs the gavel
Greg-1 says, "I *think* he's doing music practice tonight." saavik says,
"yeah, I think so too"
saavik reads the meeting agenda
saavik says, "looks like you are up first greg" Scottyg-1 says, "You can
edit it there with WSD." Greg-1 reads the meeting agenda
Greg-1 says, "Let's see... membership services..." TimCadell arrives.
TimCadell says, "Hey, all!"
john-r says, "Hi Tim"
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Tim!"
Greg-1 says, "We're synched up with James Gholston. I got the stuff from
him; but I still need to send the bumper stickers to Missy." MikeD says,
"Hi Tim"
john-r reads the meeting agenda
saavik says, "ok. and things are going smoothly?" saavik says, "Hi Tim"
MikeD reads the meeting agenda
john-r says, "Amy the agenda is corrected" TimCadell reads the meeting
agenda
Greg-1 says, "She expressed some concern about the amount of time she has
to invest in each member, so I asked her to keep track and let us know."
john-r says, "yes, let us know, so we can change as needed" john-r says,
"and not go looking for someone new, BUT not over a millino per member :)"
MikeD says, "what's a millino? John"
john-r says, "million"
saavik reads the meeting agenda
TimCadell says, "Small million?"
john-r says, "pennies or dollars, either is not in the budget" MikeD says,
"thought that would have been a millito" saavik says, "ok, so can we move
to the next item?" Severy-4 has arrived.
Greg-1 says, "It's an Italian million. :)" Severy-4 says, "Send in the
clones.... Oh, send in the clones...." Severy-4 says, "Evening, folks!
Sorry I'm late, as usual" john-r says, "a tune to sing to?"
Greg-1 says, "(Missy is half Italian, after all, on her mother's side.)"
TimCadell says, "Hey, Randall!"
Severy-4 says, "Hi, Tim! Long time no see!" saavik hands the gavel to
Randall
john-r says, "we just started, some are still on the 9 est, " saavik says,
"the time was never officially changed to 8:30, so far as I know" saavik
says, "I can't do 8:30 anyway in general" Greg-1 says, "Speaking of Missy,
she can't make it to these meetings. Would we want to invite her mom to sit
in, on Missy's behalf?" MikeD says, "Who's her mom?"
john-r says, "Do they talke to each other? a lot, (as some mom daughters do
not)" Greg-1 says, "Nancy, my aide de camp for TRLC." Greg-1 says, "TLRC,
too."
Greg-1 says, "Missy visits Nancy for lunch every day." saavik says, "hey
john, unlock the agenda :-)" MikeD chuckles.
john-r says, "Do we want Missy/or mom to sit in for the intire meeting, or
just the first few mins??" Severy-4 says, "Ok, I'm caught up on the
recorder log" saavik says, "ok, then you can keep the gavel now :-)" john-r
says, "Amy, done, sorry"
Severy-4 says, "It doesn't matter much to me when the meeting starts, the
earliest I can be here is about 9:15 pm ET, due to an orchestra rehearsal"
Greg-1 says, "IMHO, it would be nice if the person handling membership
support were aware of the projects the Moon Society has going on." Severy-4
says, "The rehearsal let out early tonight, which is why I was actually a
bit early" john-r says, "Greg, thats a fair point" saavik says, "can we
please make an official decision on time so I know when I'm at least
supposed to come?" Greg-1 says, "That increases our chances of keeping a
faithful membership processor and also enables her to at least consider
helping out with members' questions." john-r says, "but as of now, most
projects are internal to the leaders ?? i think" john-r says, "thats a
really good point on the help dir side" Severy-4 says, "It depends on the
level of coordination between the membership chairman and the membership
processor" MikeD says, "WHo's the Membership Chairman?" john-r will be
right back.
Greg-1 says, "No worries about Nancy (or Missy) handling confidential
information. Nancy has access to all of TLRC's financial systems; Missy
works for a lawyer." Severy-4 says, "Arthur, I think"
Greg-1 says, "Yes, Arthur Smith is membership chairman." saavik reads the
meeting agenda
MikeD reads the meeting agenda
Greg-1 says, "OK, still on item 1, I'll rephrase the question as a motion:
I move that we invite the membership processing person or her designated
representative to join the Moon Society Leadership Council as an ex-oficio
member." Scottyg-1 says, "Second"
Greg-1 says, "(This is the part where the meeting chairman calls for
discussion on the motion.)" Greg-1 says, "(I'll offer all of the above as
my discussion in favor, and shut up.)" Severy-4 says, "Any discussion on
the motion?" MikeD says, "makes sense to me"
saavik says, "is it for only missy or the membership person in general?"
dcarson says, "seems reasonable if we can't get Missy herself to atend"
john-r says, "back"
saavik says, "e.g. is this a rule passing for everyone who holds the job or
just her?" Scottyg-1 says, "Why can't Missy attend Greg?" Greg-1 says,
"Missy's net connection at home is down." Greg-1 says, "Amy, I think we
should adopt it as a general rule." Greg-1 says, "Invite attendance, but
not require it. If we require it, we'd have to pay her for her time. :)"
john-r says, "The only poss proplem with her mom, is a broken chain of
communciation beetween the 2" Greg-1 says, "John, believe me -- those two
communicate continuously." Greg-1 says, "They're sort of wired together."
MikeD says, "lol"
Greg-1 says, "Scotty, FYI, Nancy is going to move her net connection to
Missy's house while Nancy's house is being rebuilt." Greg-1 says, "... by
Missy's fiance."
john-r says, "wired together is good"
Greg-1 says, "(No nepotism in that family!)" john-r says, "note, she is not
a member, so access may be an issue?? Randall any problems, with no team
dir accout and access to this room?" Scottyg-1 says, "So Missy *will* be
able to make it then." john-r says, "and we can always have her at the top
of the list, and she can stay for that part or stay for the entire meeting"
Greg-1 says, "Scotty, yes, if she has time. But as I said, I don't want to
*require* attendance unless we're willing to pay her for her time." Greg-1
says, "That's a good idea, John." Severy-4 says, "She would need to be
added to the team somehow, John" Greg-1 says, "As "Membership Processing
Representative"?" saavik says, "should we call for a vote?" Severy-4 says,
"Yes, Amy"
Severy-4 says, "All in favor?"
john-r says, "or--- does the society want to pay a 35 fee or speacila rate
and let her be a reg member, as long as she/anyone is the membership rep"
saavik says, "she ought to at least be a member" Greg-1 says, "Aye"
TimCadell says, "Can I vote? Aye, if so." saavik says, "aye with the
membership limitation" MikeD says, "Aye like Tim"
dcarson says, "aye"
kokhmmm says, "aye"
john-r says, "aye"
Severy-4 says, "Aye"
DaveW says, "aye"
Scottyg-1 says, "Aye"
Greg-1 says, "Aye"
Greg-1 says, "Oops. I already said that." Severy-4 says, "The vote passes"
Scottyg-1 says, "I think we have an issue that needs to be cleaned up."
Greg-1 says, "Yeah, membership."
Scottyg-1 says, "We need another "Member" class - employee." Greg-1 says,
"The membership processor is a paid employee." Greg-1 says, "I think Nancy
might already be a member of the Moon Society." Scottyg-1 says, "Its
unreasonable to expect an employee to pay for the privelege of doing his
job, any other schemes are just evading the issue." Greg-1 says, "Good
point, Scotty."
saavik says, "sure but she needs to be an official member somehow" saavik
says, "we can make her membership free so long as she is an employee"
TimCadell says, "Kind of a perq.\"
john-r says, "is she an employee, or a contract worker, we really need to
be sure, as if employee are we withholding taxes and have work comp?"
Scottyg-1 says, "I think it only took Randall a few minutes to add the
student/senior membership class to Team Director, so I don't think there's
an infrastructure problem." MikeD says, "she doesn't earn enought from our
employment for that to be an issue John" Greg-1 says, "John, she's a
contract worker." Scottyg-1 says, "She's a contract worker, not an
employee, so "employee" may not be the right designation." Greg-1 says, "We
don't do taxes for contract workers" TimCadell says, "Contractor."
Greg-1 says, "What Scotty said. And Tim." DaveW says, "how about "staff""
saavik says, "but then we mightbe staff" Scottyg-1 says, "Thats good. The
best I could think of was "associate"" saavik says, "(being officers and
all)" TimCadell says, "Sometimes when I work as a contractor, the company
gives me a key so I can work in the building at off hours. Same thing here,
we're giving her the means to do her job." saavik says, "ping"
TimCadell says, "pong"
DaveW says, "pong"
saavik says, "(sorry having net troubles)" Scottyg-1 says, "Amy, we don't
need a special class since we're members." Greg-1 says, "OKOKOK... I move
that we add a new membership class designation of "Contractor", with dues
paid by the Society, for the Society's contract workers." saavik says,
"nod, just want to make sure that staff doesn't mean officers are free
members but youhave to be a member to be elected" TimCadell says, "Paid by
or waived by?" saavik says, "waived is my vote"
Scottyg-1 says, "No dues required."
Scottyg-1 says, "Paid by has no real meaning." Greg-1 says, "I'll accept
"with no dues required" as a friendly amendment to the motino." TimCadell
says, "Nolo contendre."
john-r says, "waivered is my vote for a controctor" Scottyg-1 says, "(I
take it out of the bank and put it back in?)" MikeD says, "that might make
some sense of we weren't a 501c3" Scottyg-1 says, "Greg, will you accept an
amendment to designate it staff instead of contractor?" Greg-1 says, "New
wording: Moved that the Moon Society add a new membership class designation
of "Contractor", with no dues required, for the Society's contract
workers."" Greg-1 says, "New wording, the sequel: Moved that the Moon
Society add a new membership class designation of "Staff", with no dues
required, for the Society's contract workers." Scottyg-1 says, "So we don't
have to do this over if the position happens to become an employee?"
kokhmmm says, "second"
john-r says, "third"
john-r says, ":)"
TimCadell says, "1/4"
Greg-1 says, "LOL"
dcarson says, "aye"
Greg-1 says, "Scotty, yeah, what you said." saavik says, "aye"
Greg-1 says, "aye"
TimCadell says, "Scotty, just thinking that paying the dues might count as
income to be taxed. Waived wouldn't, I think." saavik says, "staff =
employee"
MikeD says, "aye"
Scottyg-1 says, "aye"
john-r says, "aye"
TimCadell says, "Aye aye"
MikeD says, "staff can also = contractor and vendor" Scottyg-1 says, "I
agree with Mike. Staff is non-specific." saavik nods.
saavik says, "that is what I was saying too" Scottyg-1 says, "K"
saavik guesses the secretary ought to be officially recording these motions
today Greg-1 says, "Good idea, Amy. They'll get lost in the raw
transcripts." kokhmmm says, "aye"
Severy-4 says, "Aye"
Severy-4 says, "The motion passes"
Greg-1 says, "(Having gone through all that, I'm now trying to drag Nancy
in here so she will learn that we're just folks around here.)" Greg-1 says,
"Randall, can you give Nancy access to this room?" Severy-4 says, "Not
directly, it's controlled by the team in Team Director" Scottyg-1 says,
"May have to turn off the door dragon to let her in." saavik reads the
meeting agenda
Greg-1 says, "Oh, OK."
Greg-1 says, "I'll teleport her for now." saavik says, "ok, move to next
agenda item?" MikeD reads the meeting agenda
Severy-4 says, "Are we done with Membership Services?" Greg-1 says, "Yes,
just in time for Nancy to be here! LOL" Scottyg-1 says, "I think so
Randall."
Greg-1 says, "Hi Nancy!"
Severy-4 says, "Ok, moving on to Term Limits..." Nancy says, "Hi Greg!"
Severy-4 says, "I don't remember where that was left, so can someone bring
us up to date?" Greg-1 says, "I don't think it's ever been made an official
motino." Greg-1 says, "... or motion, either."
MikeD says, "Greg wants to be forced to quit after 2 terms" TimCadell says,
""Hi, Nancy!"
Greg-1 says, "Greg wants all the officers to be forced to at least change
jobs after 2 terms." saavik says, "I think the discussion was limiting
officers to two consecutive terms" Nancy says, "Hi Tim!"
Scottyg-1 has some interest in that too. TimCadell grins.
saavik says, "they could run again but only after doing something else"
Greg-1 says, "Yes, unless no suitable alternative candidate is
forthcoming." saavik says, "but as I recall, it requires a constitution
change so requires a membership vote" saavik says, "but we should hash out
what we can" MikeD says, "the idea has considerable merit" irs says, "Can I
say something about that?" Greg-1 says, "I think it was just the bylaws."
Greg-1 says, "We looked that up."
Scottyg-1 says, "No, the Board can amend the Bylaws." Greg-1 says, "Yeah,
it's a board thing." Greg-1 says, "Of course you can, Ian."
saavik says, "right, bylaws :-)"
saavik says, "(sorry, been reading too much news about constitution changes
in MA :-))" irs says, "While I definitely understand your reasoning, Greg
(on a couple levels), I really don't think term limits is a good idea." irs
says, "Term limits is something usually proposed by those not in power to
maintain their chance of getting back into power (thus, the Roosevelt
amendment proposed by Republicans, and so forth)." irs says, "In general
practice, however, if the people who elect the officer are comfortable with
that officer continuing in office, why should there be a rule removing one
of their options (reelection)?" irs says, "If the people are unhappy with a
long-serving representative, voting him out is always an option." TimCadell
says, "Agreed. Democracy in action." Greg-1 says, "Ian, I don't see how
that necessarily makes term limits a bad idea." irs says, "While I don't
foresee any possibility of Greg ever being voted out of office in this
organization, and I do see Greg's reasoning for letting him out of office
without saying "no, I'm not running for re-election", I'm a little more
comfortable with the Washington method of doing so; announce that you're
stepping down to avoid an imperial presidency." kokhmmm says, "I think it
is a good idea in general for anyone to step down and out for a term so as
to rethink and recharge and get out of any ruts" irs says, "Because I can
foresee possibilities when we would want an officer in office longer than
two terms, and there's no reason to limit that person's usefulness right
now." Greg-1 says, "Yes, that option is available for all of the officers
already." Scottyg-1 says, "Good for both the person and the organization I
think." Greg-1 says, "I like term limits because it forces the issue."
saavik says, "I can especially see the usefulness for positions like
treasurer where it is harder to transfer stuff" saavik says, "(sorry
Scotty)"
Arthur arrives.
Arthur says, "Oops... no excuse tonight" MikeD says, "HI Arthur"
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Arthur"
Greg-1 says, "If we have term limits, the officers have to look for
alternative candidates to succeed them." MikeD says, "Tell them you thought
the meeting was at 9pm Arthur" irs says, "Other than in this specific case,
Greg, I think introducing term limits right now is merely limiting our
successors." saavik says, "hey now mike"
irs says, "It's not giving us any additional options we don't already
have." Greg-1 says, "It also tells the members that we won't allow the
organization to become a dynasty." Greg-1 says, "That has spoiled a lot of
other organizations." Greg-1 says, "The more dynamic organizations that I
am a member of -- the AIAA, ASME, SAE -- all have term limits." MikeD says,
"sorry Amy"
Greg-1 says, "Members know that they can aspire to officerhood; they don't
feel shut out." saavik says, "well, it's true that we never picked an
official time, so far as I know. see the next agenda item ;-)" Greg-1 says,
"Also, people might be more willing to accept an office if they know that
they will have a graceful exit from the responsibility." Greg-1 says,
"IMHO, someone who would feel the opposite would not be a good candidate
for office." Greg-1 says, "That is, someone who would run for office with
hopes of establishing a dynasty." irs says, "I've said my piece. I oppose
term limits." Scottyg-1 says, "I can see some good points on both sides of
this one." MikeD says, "same here"
john-r says, "same here"
dcarson says, "a tradition of running only twice in a row works also and is
more flexible" Greg-1 says, "True, but it doesn't prevent a hostile
take-over of the Society." dcarson says, "neither does naything else"
kokhmmm says, "In general, I think it is a good idea. The worry is that
there will be no qualified candidates. Treasurer requires expertise" MikeD
says, "Would it be possible to rephrase the motion without using the phrase
"Term Limits"?" Greg-1 says, "With term limits, a hostile take-over would
not be worth the bother." Scottyg-1 says, "I think its time for a motion
and lets see how it comes out." irs says, "If the Board can amend the
Bylaws, simply introducing term limits also does not prevent a hostile
take-over." saavik says, "there wasn't an official motion to rephrase yet"
dcarson says, "if you can win elections you can just rotate offices, not a
problem" Greg-1 says, "OK, I'll phrase it as an official motion" kokhmmm
says, "Greg, after rephrasing, we have to convene the board" saavik says,
"damnit"
saavik says, "who gets to vote for this one?" saavik says, "sorry michael
(stupid autosay thing)" Scottyg-1 says, "Yep, this is a board issue." MikeD
says, "only board members"
Scottyg-1 says, "So Amy, Scotty, and Tim can't vote." Greg-1 says, "I move
that the Board of Directors amend the Bylaws to limit the terms officers.
Officers shall be limited to two consecutive terms in any one elected
office of the Moon Society." saavik says, "we are ex oficio members but no
vote?" saavik says, "but we can express an opinion ;-)" Scottyg-1 says,
"Right Amy"
MikeD says, "nor I"
Severy-4 thwacks the gavel
Severy-4 says, "I hereby convene an official meeting of the Moon Society
Board of Directors" Greg-1 says, "Poor gavel! What did it do to deserve
such treatment?" Severy-4 says, "Does everyone waive notice of this
meeting?" irs says, "I think you've misworded it, Greg." TimCadell says,
"Wow, it seems more officious in here already!" Greg-1 says, "Waive notice."
DaveW says, "i would like to see a bit more detail to this" dcarson says,
"I waive notice"
Severy-4 waives notice
kokhmmm says, "waive notice"
Greg-1 says, "Ian, you're better at this -- give it a shot." john-r waives
notice
Arthur waives notice
Severy-4 says, "All board members present please say Aye" Severy-4 says,
"Aye"
Arthur says, "Aye"
saavik says, "I agree with dave"
dcarson says, "aye"
john-r says, "aye"
kokhmmm says, "aye"
Greg-1 says, "Aye"
saavik says, "my opinion is the jury is still out" kokhmmm says, "aye"
Severy-4 says, "Are we missing any board members (I've lost track)?" john-r
says, "Michael"
Scottyg-1 says, "& present."
Scottyg-1 says, "7 too"
Severy-4 says, "Got it"
Greg-1 says, "Dave, Amy, we can postpone a vote if we need to, but this way
at least we have an official motion to shoot at." MikeD says, "Michael's
been idling in the commons for 2 hours" DaveW says, "something to the
effect of two terms if at least two qualified candidates are available"
TimCadell says, "Does "qualified" count in all offices, or only treasurer?"
dcarson says, "qualified menas a member long enough is the requirement
IIRC" irs says, "I think you meant "Officers may serve no more than two
consecutive terms, but non-consecutive terms are not limited by this
bylaw."" kokhmmm says, "By qualified as treasurer, I mean someone with
experience" Arthur says, "Looking at the bylaws, the issue is section 5 of
Article VI, for officers." irs says, "I can't think of any good way to word
it to allow an officer to serve more than two terms simply because there is
no "qualified" opposition. Qualification can be used to evade the meaning
of your proposal at will." MikeD says, "Would elligible be a better word?"
irs says, "Change "bylaw" in the above to "section"." Arthur says, "For
Board of Directors, it's section 3a of article V" Arthur says, "How about
allowing a vote of the BoD to override the rule, in case of necessity?" irs
says, "We have no eligibility definition in the Bylaws, to my knowledge,
other than membership." Arthur says, "override the term limit, that is."
Greg-1 says, "Reference:
http://www.moonsociety.org/organizing-documents/bylaws.html" Greg-1 says,
"Ian, right."
Scottyg-1 says, "I don't think this should apply to board members, only to
officers." Arthur says, "Hmm, oddly, section 1 of article VI says the
directors ARE officers too?" Greg-1 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Greg-1. saavik says, "what happened to
greg"
saavik reads the meeting agenda
Scottyg-1 says, "Hmmm. I think ex-officio board members are also required
to receive meeting notice, so I waive meeting notice." TimCadell says,
"Limited term?"
saavik says, "me too then"
Greg arrives amidst thundering applause. Greg says, "Oops. My net
connection blew." Greg says, "Did I miss anything?"
MikeD says, "Only this:"
MikeD says, "he housekeeper arrives to remove Greg-1." MikeD says, "saavik
says, "what happened to greg"" MikeD says, "saavik reads the meeting
agenda" MikeD says, "Scottyg-1 says, "Hmmm. I think ex-officio board
members are also required to receive meeting notice, so I waive meeting
notice."" MikeD says, "TimCadell says, "Limited term?"" MikeD says, "saavik
says, "me too then"" Arthur says, "I'll repeat my little note: Hmm, oddly,
section 1 of article VI says the directors ARE officers too?"" TimCadell
says, "Scottyg-1 says, "I don't think this should apply to board members,
only to officers."" Greg says, "Egad... you're right, Arthur." kokhmmm
says, "I have nothing against it applying to directors also. That would
open the ranks to new people." Greg says, "That is an anomaly."
Greg says, "I don't want it to apply to board members because I'd like the
Society to be consistent in its policy-making functions." dcarson says, "I
think this needs to be written and emailed so we can make sure it says what
is wanted?" MikeD will be right back.
Greg says, "Dana, I agree."
Scottyg-1 says, "I think the remaining wording of Section VI plainly
differentiates officers from board members." Arthur says, "Yup - we should
probably fix section 1 while we're at it." dcarson says, "I will probably
not be here next week" dcarson says, "visiting relatives for thanksgiving"
Scottyg-1 says, "I agree Arthur."
Greg says, "OK, I'll take the action item to write this motion and email it
to the leaders list." Arthur says, "sounds good"
Arthur reads the meeting agenda
kokhmmm says, "Greg, does your term limit resolution apply retroactively?"
Severy-4 says, "Ok, is there any other business to come before the board
tonight?" Scottyg-1 says, "Greg, make it two parts, the other being to
strike Board of Directors from Article VI, Section 1" Greg says, "Scotty,
right. 2 motions." kokhmmm reads the meeting agenda
irs says, "Ah, proper wording: "Article VI, Section 5: Re-election.
Officers shall be eligible for re-election with only the proviso that
officers may serve no more than two consecutive terms. Non-consecutive
terms, however, are not limited by this section."" saavik says, "ok, next
one is me unless someone else has been editing " Scottyg-1 says, "Article V
already defines the BOD, including terms, etc." saavik reads the meeting
agenda
saavik says, "are we onto item 3?"
Severy-4 says, "Can someone other than me move to adjourn the board
meeting?" Arthur says, "I think so Amy"
Severy-4 says, "we're still in a board meeting, Amy" Arthur says, "Oh"
saavik says, "move to adjourn now that I know I can" Scottyg-1 says, "Hmmm.
No one has updated the Bylaws to show 7 Directors either." dcarson says,
"move to adjourn"
Greg says, "second"
Severy-4 says, "All in favor?"
Severy-4 says, "Aye"
saavik says, "aye"
dcarson says, "aye"
Greg says, "aye"
irs says, "Don't screw with Section 1. Just change Section 5 to "the
President, Vice President, Secretary, and Treasurer are limited to no more
than two consecutive terms. This limitation does not apply to
non-consecutive terms."" john-r says, "aye"
Severy-4 says, "Ok, enough votes are recorded, this board meeting is
adjourned" Severy-4 says, "...and back to the Leadership Council meeting"
MikeD reads the meeting agenda
Severy-4 says, "You're next, Amy"
Greg reads the meeting agenda
saavik says, "ok. simple question: we *discussed* 8:30 but never decided it
for sure. I've been operating under 9pm. I want to have an agreed upon time
that we *all* agree on" saavik says, "should be a short item"
MikeD says, "my 2 cents, the earlier meeting time doesn't seem to be
working out too well for most people" saavik says, "I make a motion that we
stick with 9pm" Greg says, "And it's a mess for Randall and Scotty." Arthur
says, "Oh aye on adjourn"
Greg says, "Second Amy's motion."
kokhmmm says, "Yes,3 of us were here at 8pm and twiddled our thumbs"
Severy-4 says, "Regardless of the meeting time, I won't be here until
around 9:15 pm ET" Nancy reads the meeting agenda
dcarson says, "yep"
MikeD says, "I can always sleep an extra hour before the meeting" saavik
says, "8pm??"
Greg says, "It's 8:00 PM Central Time, Peter." Scottyg-1 says, "I'll vary
from 8:30 to 9:00." Severy-4 says, "So is everyone ok with leaving the
meeting at 9 pm ET?" Arthur says, "9 is ok with me"
saavik says, "if you are only 15 min late, that's ok randall. I can handle
the gavel until you come" kokhmmm says, "ok"
saavik says, "but 8:30 is too early for me" Greg likes Scotty's boss almost
as much as he likes Greg's boss. MikeD says, "yes, the 30 minutes doens't
save me from a late night" saavik says, "any objections to 9pm EST then?"
dcarson says, "none here"
kokhmmm says, "no"
john-r reads the meeting agenda
Severy-4 says, "Ok, we'll keep it at 9 pm ET then" MikeD says, "I hate it,
but I hate 8:30pm EST just as much so leave it at 9pm" Severy-4 says, "Next
up is the moon-discuss list and yahoo group" saavik says, "lol, ok"
Arthur says, "John, thanks for doing a great job getting the yahoo group
under our domain :-)" MikeD says, "I moderated new users so that Bill
Butler can't get back on with his gack" Arthur says, "And Mike for helping"
saavik says, "does this item include the potential for a policy on removing
people from the list?" saavik says, "and yes, great job mike"
saavik says, "err john!"
saavik says, "I'm a moderator too and can help if need be but you haven't
needed me ;-)" MikeD says, "I haven't removed him"
john-r says, "TY Arthur, it was really hard :)" MikeD says, "The yahoo
groups allow moderation of individuals" Greg says, "Yup. That's one of the
strengths of Yahoo groups." MikeD says, "if I just removed him he would
have rejoined with a different username like he did before" MikeD says,
"moderating new users also cuts out spam" Nancy says, "It sure does Mike."
MikeD says, "Nancy, I assume you have some experience with Yahoo groups"
Arthur says, "So, we have 59 people on moonsociety yahoo group; 17 people
on the "discuss" list so far. Do we want to just leave them as they are,
change policies? Remove "discuss"? I'm happy with things as they are right
now." Arthur says, "but we could plan some sort of further promotion at
some point" Greg says, "If you're happy, Arthur, I see no need to change."
Nancy says, "Yes, Mike I sure do."
john-r says, "Peter Promoted Discuss in MMM" MikeD says, "Nancy, if all new
users are moderated, can I unmoderate them individually?" Arthur says,
"Yup. There's been a bit of unique activity there. It has it's purpose as a
members-only list." john-r says, "And i am happy with the 3 lists" Greg
says, "A button on the front page of the site might help promote them."
john-r says, "can the discuss item be removed from the agenda for next
week?" Nancy says, "Sure, anytime you want to Mike." Arthur says, "sounds
fine with me"
MikeD says, "Which site Greg?"
MikeD says, "Our own site?"
Greg says, "I was thinking the Moon Society site." Greg says, "A button
could link directly to the Yahoo group." Nancy says, "If you need a
moderator, I can help too." MikeD says, "Yes, that's an idea Greg"
MikeD says, "Nancy, we currently have 3 owners and a moderator" TimCadell
says, "Thanks, Arthur."
TimCadell grin.
MikeD says, "I see no reason to change the status of Robert Dahluist" MikeD
says, "I see no reason to change the status of Robert Dahlquist either"
Nancy says, "Just let me know if you need any help. You may get more
traffic if you put a link up there." MikeD says, "Ok"
Greg says, "The inverse might be true, too... the Yahoo group might provide
publicity for the Society." Nancy says, "That's a good point too, Greg."
Arthur says, "Oh yeah - there was a suggestion to change the info and links
on the moonsociety yahoo group page - Mike, did you do something about
that?" kokhmmm says, "I have a note in the November MMM about the Yahoo
group" MikeD says, "I have a link on the yahoo group mainpage to the Moon
Society, but I haven't yet figured out how much html it allows" MikeD says,
"You can't put a link on the image." Greg says, "Mike, do you mean on the
Yahoo group home page?" kokhmmm says, "I can suggest that all the chapters
and outposts with websites put up a link to the Yahoo group" MikeD says,
"But if the description field allows it, you could put an image in there"
MikeD says, "Yes Greg"
saavik just got a phone call IRL, but she will be right back. Greg says,
"Good idea, Peter."
john-r says, "thats a good point, and they could be in the yahoo links
page, but someone has to keep it current" MikeD says, "John, that's asking
for trouble if you do that" john-r says, "on peters comment that is" Greg
says, "Mike, I can help doll up the group's home page if you like. Just
give me whatever permissions I need to do that." Greg says, "I've done a ot
of those."
john-r says, "Mik, you mean listing the chapters on the yahoo link page?"
MikeD says, "It'll be uptodate for 3 months then outof date for 2 years"
john-r says, "true"
john-r says, "just a thought"
MikeD says, "The links have to be entered manually" kokhmmm says, "I meant
chapter pages should link to Yahoo page" Greg says, "Yeah, what Peter said."
john-r says, "understood Peter, just i thought before i spoke :)" Greg
says, "If we have the inverse -- the groups linking to chapters, then the
chapters should be responsible for maintaining their own entries in the
links section." Scottyg-1 says, "Yahoo could link to a chapters page on
Moon Society." MikeD says, "Yeah, but since most chapters haven't even
updated their own webpages...." kokhmmm says, "But there could be a link on
Yahoo to the moon soc. chapters listings" Greg says, "Yup."
Scottyg-1 says, "Moon Society links can be maintained from the Team
Director database." TimCadell says, "Don't know if I like Scotty's idea or
Peter's idea better." MikeD says, "Amy and John, should I make Greg and
owner?" saavik says, "sure"
kokhmmm says, "Tim, looks like the same idea to me" john-r says, "for a
hundred bucks :)"
john-r says, "for greg that is"
TimCadell grins
Greg says, "OK, for a hundred bucks, I'll do it." john-r says, "NO NO"
Greg says, ":)"
john-r says, "i mean you pay a hundred " TimCadell says, "Careful what you
say, John." john-r says, "whew"
john-r says, "on ward"
MikeD says, "Greg, John meant you to have to get a bridging loan to pay
him" john-r says, "yes greg can be an owner" saavik says, "I'd be ok with
all the officers being owners. I trust us all to do the right thing (tm)"
Greg says, "I think I just got an action item to make the group's home page
look purdy." saavik says, "but we do need to discuss the removal stuff at
some point (if you did, I missed it from the phone)" Greg says, "Gah...
what happened to my carefully designed program of dodging action items?"
Greg says, "There's really never a need to remove a member from a Yahoo
group." Greg says, "... unless the group discusses secret things; in which
case it shouldn't be on Yahoo." saavik says, "right. I meant in general,
sorry to not be specific enough." Greg says, "You can moderate 'em if
they're obnoxious and can't-post 'em if they're spammers. That's enough."
MikeD says, "Greg, you should be able to do pretty much anything in the
Moon Society yahoo group now" Greg says, "On Yahoo, you can moderate first,
and then ask if you should have in a private mailing list." Greg says,
"Thanks, Mike."
MikeD says, "who else want's yahoogroup permissions/responsibilities?" Greg
says, "I can't promise to do moderator work because I can't keep up with it
in real time." kokhmmm says, "What is the URL for our yahoo page?" Greg
says, "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moonsociety/" MikeD says, "beat me to
it"
Greg says, "Oops."
MikeD says, "Ok, I just unmoderated Tim" Greg says, "Do we have a private
mailing list for the group's mods? That's usually a good idea." Greg says,
"Then if you do have to moderate someone, you just drop a note to the list
for feedback." Greg says, "Or, if you propose to unmoderate a new member
but aren't sure, it would be a good place to ask." john-r reads the meeting
agenda
MikeD says, "I don't quite follow you there Greg?" john-r will be right
back.
Greg says, "Mike, I was suggesting Yet Another majordomo list, for
moderators of the Yahoo group." MikeD hmms.
MikeD says, "I can see how that could help" Greg says, "Where one might ask
things like "I think we should unmoderate Joe Doakes. Does anyone think
otherwise?"" kokhmmm says, "On my browser, the advertising banner
overwrites part of the page" MikeD says, "what browser is that Peter?" Greg
says, "We don't have control over that part of it, Peter. That's how Yahoo
pays its bills." kokhmmm says, "AOL's internet explorrer" kokhmmm says, "I
don';t mind the ad, it hides text however" TimCadell says, "I'm a
moderator? When did that happen?" MikeD says, "No, you're unmoderated"
TimCadell says, "Ah. Now I'm less confused. I think." MikeD says, "What
advertising banner Peter?" Nancy says, "A majordomo list comes in very
handy when you have to discuss things behind closed doors. I would highly
recommend you have one." Greg says, "Tim, all new members are automagically
moderated when they first join. It stops spammers." TimCadell says, "Ah, I
got it."
kokhmmm says, "Earn your degree while you work" TimCadell says, "Nice, I
haven't run an open list on Yahoo yet." MikeD says, "And since we know
you're not a spammer Tim...." TimCadell says, "Bwa ha ha."
Greg says, "... unless you want to spam for Lunar Traders. :)" MikeD says,
"Peter, I don't get that banner" kokhmmm says, "I refreshed the page twice.
Still there." TimCadell says, "Sometimes you get a banner, sometimes you
don't. It's fairly random." Greg says, "Maybe they do it differently in the
Old Country, Mike?" kokhmmm says, "In fact, there is no vertical scroll
bar, and part of the text is off the top of the page." MikeD says, "maybe
they do it differently for Macs" Greg says, "Yeah. Yahoo is probably using
some Windows-specific code. Or IE-6-specific." Greg says, "Right now, I'm
connected only with Windows so I can't check that part." dcarson says,
"seems to be OK with Mozilla under OS X" MikeD says, "Sounds like a browser
MSHTML problem alright" Greg says, "This should change tomorrow. :)" john-r
says, "Peter tis the a link to continue to the list, in yahoo??" john-r
says, "is there"
kokhmmm says, "The ad has already changed. Still overwriting our part of
page" saavik says, "yahoo works for me on mac " saavik says, "I use Safari"
kokhmmm says, "There are links to register, sign in, etc. and these also
are behind other text" MikeD says, "Ahh, on the main Yahoo Groups page?"
kokhmmm says, "on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moonsociety/" saavik says,
"yeah, it's fine for me"
saavik says, "bedtime soon"
MikeD says, "hmm, where does that go if you haven't joined the group?"
MikeD says, "anyone know?"
TimCadell says, "Looks the same."
TimCadell says, "I assume that sign out works that way." kokhmmm says, "I
haven't joined."
MikeD says, "hmm, I guess it may be a problem with the AOL client"
TimCadell says, "There's a surprise."
kokhmmm says, "Never noticed such a problem with any other web pages"
TimCadell says, "Sorry, forgot to turn on the sarcasm filter." MikeD says,
"from the sounds of it Peter, you can't even see the boxes and buttons for
joining" saavik reads the meeting agenda
saavik says, "I'll assume there isn't much left? I've got to head out so I
can get to work in the am" kokhmmm says, "Yes, I can see the buttons, but
they are behind text in other color" TimCadell says, "Well, goodnight all.
I need to get Alex ready for bed." MikeD reads the meeting agenda
Greg already has Alex in bed.
Severy-4 says, "Does anyone have anything specific from the rest of the
agenda that we need to discuss tonight?" Greg says, ":)"
dcarson reads the meeting agenda
TimCadell says, "Great, that takes a load off my mind, Greg! :-)" TimCadell
has disconnected.
kokhmmm says, "And because the buttons are behind text in other color, they
do not seem to be active or activatable." Saavik notes that even full
Vulcans need to sleep sometimes saavik has disconnected.
MikeD says, "I would like to suggest flip-flopping the agenda so stuff gets
covered more consistently" irs has disconnected.
Severy-4 says, "I'll try to do that for next time, Mike" MikeD says, "we
seem to just get to item 4 and then breeze thru the rest if at all" kokhmmm
says, "same problem at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marssociety/ so its
not our problem." Greg says, "Yeah, that's all Yahoo stuff." MikeD says,
"we already knew it wasn't our fault Peter" kokhmmm says, "But I have to
go. Good night all." Scottyg-1 says, "G'nite!"
kokhmmm has disconnected.
Greg says, "Yeah, what everbody said. The esoterics of Yahoo groups would
be best moved to a mailing list for just that purpose." MikeD says, "Right
now I wouldn't worry about how it looks on Peter's machine. That machine is
to be having some other issues, who knows what the overall issue could be"
Greg says, "Then we could all quiz Nancy about how to do this. She's been a
mod in several Yahoo groups since forever." MikeD says, "A lot of it seems
very straightforward" Greg says, "Yup."
The housekeeper arrives to cart TimCadell off to bed. The housekeeper
arrives to cart saavik off to bed. john-r says, "i have to sleep, can i
leave - pleaseeeee" The housekeeper arrives to cart irs off to bed. MikeD
says, "we never got to the flyer issue" john-r says, "and Ian is gone"
Greg says, "And the housekeeper just carted off Mr. Flyer. :(" MikeD says,
"yup"
john-r says, "so the flip, or move up will work" MikeD says, "the flyer
needs to move up" john-r says, "yup"
Greg says, "Agreed."
dcarson says, "Ian and I are on a panel at Philcon next month, I'll bug him
so we have some to hand out then" john-r says, "we had 2 add ons for
tonight" MikeD says, "the flyer is quite a large issue right now" john-r
says, "good Dana - bug him good" Greg says, "My apologies for dominating so
much of the meeting with those, too." john-r says, ":)"
dcarson says, "Greg, where is that formula on domes and hoop stress?" MikeD
says, "domes and hoop stress?"
The housekeeper arrives to cart kokhmmm off to bed. Greg says, "hoop stress
= pressure * radius / thickness" Greg says, "dome stress = 1/2 * pressure *
radius / thickness" dcarson says, "a large enough dome the stress goes up
faster then the circumference so it can't get larger then a given size"
Greg says, "It's the stress in the skin of a cylindrical pressure shell."
Greg says, "Right."
Greg says, "Not with known materials."
john-r says, "night all"
Greg says, "G'night, John."
john-r has disconnected.
Arthur says, "Good night from here too!" MikeD says, "speaking of
materials, how strong is Lexan?" Arthur leaves.
Greg says, "G'night, Arthur."
dcarson says, "so at some point making the dome x biger means the shell has
to be made more then X thicker so the inside actually get smaller correct?"
Greg says, "I don't know off the top of my head, Mike. A web search for
lexan "yield stress" would probably pay off." dcarson says, "
http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/static/E/CT30.HTML" Greg says, "Dana,
I had never thought of it that way, but you're right." Greg says, "For
domes on a planetary surface, you eventually get to the point where you
can't anchor the dome in the local rock." Greg says, "Spheres good. Domes
bad."
dcarson says, "that came up at some point on the list quite a while ago,
wanted it fro the panel on Terraforming the Moon at Philcon" Greg says,
"Nugget: Jim Oberg says that if we were give the Moon an atmosphere to
create sea-level pressure at the surface, it would take 10,000 years for
the atmosphere to leak down by 1%." Greg says, "That's from his book, NEW
EARTHS" The housekeeper arrives to cart john-r off to bed. MikeD says,
"That sounds like a maintainable atmosphere" DaveW says, "yes but what
volume of gas would be required to achive that" Greg says, "Another fun
nugget: It would take so much energy to raise the temperature of Mars to
Earth normal and to maintain that temperature that it's easier
(energy-wise) to MOVE THE WHOLE PLANET into Earth's orbit." Greg says,
"Dave... lots and lots and lots." Greg says, "The book is packed away so I
can't look it up just now." Greg says, "In fact, the Warehouse of Doom just
got delivered to our new digs about two hours ago." dcarson says, "I was
looking for a copy of Foggs book Terraforming but it out of print and I
didn't find any used copies in bookfinder, never had that before" Greg
says, "Try for Oberg's book. He might even sell it at
http://www.jamesoberg.com/" Greg says, "I have a slow connection (cell
phone modem) so I'm not volunteering to do web searches tonight." dcarson
says, "yep he does thanks"
Greg says, "What I *am* volunteering for is to go to bed. :)" MikeD says,
"I'm going *back* to bed"
Nancy says, "Good night all!"
Nancy has disconnected.
MikeD says, "night"
MikeD leaves.
Greg says, "G'night folks!"
dcarson says, "gnight"
Scottyg-1 says, "The total upward fore on the surface of a hemispherical
dome is the pressure times the area: p*PI*r^2" Greg says, "Scotty right!"
Scottyg-1 says, "But the circumference that carries the load is 2*PI*R"
Greg says, "Now I'm escaping before my face hits the keyboard. :)" Greg has
disconnected.
Scottyg-1 says, "So the force per unit length of circumference is (p*PI*
R^2)/(2*PI*R)" Scottyg-1 says, "This reduces to: 1/2*p
*R" Scottyg-1 says, "There's an immediate conclusion - the force per unit
length increases in direct proportion to the diameter." The housekeeper
arrives to cart Nancy off to bed. Scottyg-1 [to maintain]: the same stress
level on the dome, the material thickness has to increase at the same rate.
Scottyg-1 says, "(as the diameter)" Scottyg-1 says, "However, the added
material is outside the enclosed area in the above formulas." Scottyg-1
says, "So the enclosed space does grow as expected." The housekeeper
arrives to cart Greg off to bed. dcarson says, "ok, it was quite a while
ago and thats why I wnated to know if Greg had a reference" Scottyg-1 says,
"And this ignores the effects of gravity." dcarson says, "still means at
some size the foundation gives way" Scottyg-1 says, "Yep, the dome becomes
a short-lived rocket." Scottyg-1 says, "I made a slight misstatement
above...." Scottyg-1 says, "I said: The total upward force on the surface
of a hemispherical dome is the pressure times the area: p*PI*r^2" Scottyg-1
says, "I should have said: The total upward force on the surface of a
hemispherical dome is the pressure times the area projected onto a
horizontal plane: p*PI*r^2"" Scottyg-1 says, "(Formula was right, words
were wrong.)" dcarson says, "check"
dcarson says, "have you looked at the law on spammers?" Scottyg-1 says,
"Yep"
Scottyg-1 says, "Probably nearly unenforceable unless the spam originates
inside the state." dcarson says, "having recieved ~7000 bouinces from AOL
from a spam run on the 13th I'd really like to hurt them (spamers not AOL)"
Scottyg-1 says, "If the spam was sent thru AOL, they'll usually kick the
person off." Scottyg-1 says, "Not much of a penalty." dcarson says, "no to
aol with forged tlrc return addresses" dcarson says, "although the numbr of
aolers who don't know to respond to be removed seems high, but still only
in the 10s out of thousnads" Scottyg-1 says, "We need some international
laws regulating spam." dcarson says, "yep"
Scottyg-1 says, "And some changes in the mail protocol to stop forged From
addresses." dcarson says, "I want to be able to forge tlrc.com even though
I'm sending from comcast though, but some way to verify the mailhost would
help" Scottyg-1 says, "Especially - I should be able to refuse mail at my
isp's server unless it was sent from the domain that is in the From"
dcarson says, "gets rid of the people sending from home machines (the
spammers are working with the virus/worm writers now and hijacking home
machies)" Scottyg-1 says, "Also, I should be able to query the mail agent
at that domain to authenticate the sender and the serial number." Scottyg-1
says, "Finally, mail servers should be set up to forward mail after user
authentication." Scottyg-1 says, "Then you wouldn't need to forge tlrc.com"
dcarson says, "true"
Scottyg-1 says, "As for people whose computers get hacked....Make the mail
client or OS vendor liable for security breaches, and that problem will
vanish almost immediately.....The features that make systems vulnerable
will either disappear or be made robust enough to stand attack." Scottyg-1
says, "For example, I refuse to use an email client that does anything more
than render plain text." dcarson says, "you don't trust MS lookout :-)"
Scottyg-1 says, "I've NEVER had a virus get in thrugh email." Scottyg-1
says, "And after having my server hacked into a couple of times, I built a
robust firewall for it." dcarson says, "I use Eudora which will render html
but not anything else, and that can be toggled" Scottyg-1 says, "That
doesn't mean I'm invulnerable, but I'm paying attention." dcarson says,
"with images off, I don't want to have webbugs telling them that I got the
mail" Scottyg-1 says, "Mine renders all images as attachments. I can open
them if I wish, but nothing gets fetched automatically." Scottyg-1 says,
"And HTML links just disappear. It will attempt to convert HTML to plain
text, but thats all." dcarson says, "attached images come through, but some
of the html messages have images referenced on their server so they knwo if
you see it" Scottyg-1 says, "(I don't care to burn my bandwidth downloading
their advertising junk.)" dcarson says, "yep"
Scottyg-1 says, "Roughly the equivalent of lynx as a rendering engine."
dcarson says, "and the spam html which is a lot of it it tells them
delivery worked" Scottyg-1 says, "Well, its time for me to stumble off to
bed." Scottyg-1 says, "See ya!"
dcarson says, "gnight"
Scottyg-1 says, "Nite!"
Scottyg-1 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Scottyg-1.

-- End log: Thursday, November 20, 2003 12:15:30 am ASI Meeting Server time--