-- Start log: Wednesday, October 6, 2004 9:22:08 pm ASI Meeting Server time-- 

MikeD-2 says, "thanks Dana"
kokhmmm says, "Membership services and processing is first up." Greg-1
says, "She's on her way."
Greg-1 says, ":)"
Nancy-1 says, "We had 8 renews and 1 new subscription. She's still having
computer problems, but was able to get the membships caught up." Nancy-1
says, "Sorry! I'm on the phone too. :)" MikeD-2 says, "I guess tha ads
aren't helping at all" kokhmmm says, "I new - that's good. We need many
more. The total is still getting smaller." garygray says, "Nabxy do you
know where the new member came from?!" MikeD-2 says, "doesn't matter if
it's from the ads, it's not enough to pay for them" garygray says, "Yes,
the process or ad isn't working for some reason!" Nancy-1 says, "I really
don't know."
kokhmmm says, "Let's give the ads a bit more time." john-r says, "the last
member is from france" MikeD-2 says, "we'd need 30 new members a month for
the ads to be worthwhile" john-r says, "look in team director, choose
current members, then sort by member number" kokhmmm says, "That must be
the fellow I met at the Mars Convention (from France)" MikeD-2 says, "we
could try talking to the Moon Society members in Orkut" Scottyg-1 has
disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Scottyg-1. DaveW-1 arrives.
john-r says, "Hi Dave"
DaveW-1 says, "hello"
Greg-1 says, "No progress on the renewal notice letters. I've been
swampado." garygray says, "Hi Dave!"
MikeD-2 thwaps Greg-1 with a rolled-up newspaper. "Bad! Bad! Bad!!!" john-r
says, "swampado - is that worse then burried :)" MikeD-2 says, "it's
drowning in ados"
irs says, "Is burried worse than buried?" kokhmmm says, "I had offered to
do renewal letters to hardcopy subscribers, but I am having trouble just
getting MMM done along with the new duties." john-r says, "Hi Ian ! noo,
myt spellin is alfull :)" Greg-1 says, "Golly! Welcome to my nightmare,
Peter!" irs says, "Ah, that must be the editor in me <g>." Greg-1 says,
"Does anyone else around here speak mail/merge?" kokhmmm says, "eval -)"
Scottyg-1 has arrived.
Scottyg-1 says, "Oops."
MikeD-2 says, "I speak mailmerge"
MikeD-2 says, "sort ot"
MikeD-2 says, "sortof too"
john-r says, "For those like me, editors are are greatly appriciated(sp)"
Nancy-1 says, "Is that an offer to take on the mail/merge challenge, Mike?"
MikeD-2 says, "what mail/merge challenge?" john-r says, "biab"
Severy-6 has arrived.
kokhmmm says, "John is working on fingermerge" MikeD-2 says, "the funny
thing is that I was just about to mention mail/merge to Peter" Severy-6
says, "Good evening, everyone! Sorry I'm late, as usual :-(" kokhmmm says,
"Hi, Randall. We're on Membership services, and I hereby cede the gavel to
you." garygray says, "Hi Randall!"
MikeD-2 says, "just make sure you grab the gavel and not the obo Randall"
Nancy-1 says, "Hi Randall!"
Greg-1 says, "Mike, we need a system for automatically generating paper
renewal notices." Severy-6 says, "Oboe is put away for the evening until
tomorrow :-)" MikeD-2 says, "generating them from what Greg?" Greg-1 says,
"We can generate a mail/merge file from the database and Randall has
already done a lot on generating the report." Severy-6 says, "Team Director
will generate a spreadshet file of everyone that should get a renewal
notice, and we need a mail merge Word document that we can feed those
addresses into to generate renewal letters" MikeD-2 says, "I've done
mailmerge from teamdir once, about 2 years ago" Greg-1 says, "What we need
is the letter and mail/merge templates, plus a clearly written procedure
that Missy can follow to print out the letters and envelopes." Greg-1 says,
"That clearly written procedure is the turning stone." MikeD-2 says, "I
think I can handle that, it might take a couple of days as long as someone
else provides me with the wordies" Greg-1 says, "Scotty, did you do
anything with Mary Cooper's request to use funds from her account to
purchase a Moon Society membership?" Severy-6 says, "Can someone send Mike
the last version of the renewal letters?" MikeD-2 says, "what format do
these need to be?" MikeD-2 says, "will Word doc file suffice?" MikeD-2
says, "or do you need something else?" Severy-6 says, "I think the renewal
letters were in Word doc format" MikeD-2 says, "What does Missy have
availabl to her?" Scottyg-1 says, "I haven't seen Mary's request." Greg-1
says, "Scotty, oops!"
MikeD-2 says, "Let me rephrase that, what wordprocessing software does
Missy have available to her?" Greg-1 says, "Microsoft Word."
Nancy-1 says, "She has Microsoft Word." MikeD-2 says, "Ok, so Word Docs
would be the most compatible for her then" Greg-1 says, "Scotty, I'll just
pay the funds to Mary's PayPal account and then she can use the funds to
join the Moon Society. Does the Moon Society accept PayPal?" Greg-1 says,
"Mike, yup."
Scottyg-1 says, "Greg, no."
Greg-1 says, "Rats."
MikeD-2 says, "I'm not sure about transferring a whole mail/merge setup
however, it may be better for me to generate them and email them to her or
upload them to a directory on the server" kokhmmm says, "Scotty, is there a
problem with PayPall?" Scottyg-1 says, "We aren't set up with PayPal."
MikeD-2 says, "PayPal is something we should look at, but don't use the
main account" kokhmmm says, "What I am asking, is is there a reason you
prefer not being set up with Paypal?" kokhmmm says, "Like too much hastle,
too high a fee?" Severy-6 says, "I've been working on a new registration
module for Team Director for NSS, once that is completed, I'll start
looking at implementing it for the Moon Society" Severy-6 says, "It has
PayPal processing built in..." kokhmmm says, "Any other new features,
Randall?" Severy-6 says, "Lots, Peter!"
john-r says, "appox time Randall, 2months?" Scottyg-1 says, "Setting up
anything like PayPal requires initial and ongoing time and effort. If I
perceived a large demand for PayPal, I would make that effort. But this is
the first time its been mentioned." Severy-6 says, "My goal is to finish
everything before the NSS fall conference in a little over a month, John"
john-r says, "ahhh TY"
MikeD-2 says, "Scotty, PayPal might actually help increase the overseas
membership, but note the use of the word might" kokhmmm says, "Will it be
worth a special report to our members?" Severy-6 says, "Yes, there will
also be an overhaul of My Moon Society as part of that, as well as new
web-based access to mailing lists and a variety of other things" Scottyg-1
says, "PayPal isn't much help for international members. PayPal only
accepts a few currencies so it still leaves most of the world s.o.l."
Scottyg-1 says, "Credit cards are by far themost universal solution."
MikeD-2 says, "PayPal takes Euros and Pounds" Severy-6 says, "Ok, anything
else on Membership Processing for tonight?" kokhmmm says, "As to
registration options, has everyone gotten my mail suggesting a $20
(electronic newsletter) first year only registration fee for those
recruited by chapters and local contacts (to make their growth efforts
easier)?" kokhmmm says, "Jumped the gun!"
MikeD-2 says, "Peter, that would really just require a password protected
signup area for chapter leaders" kokhmmm says, "Explain, Mike"
MikeD-2 says, "but I'm sure there are other issues" Greg-1 reads the
meeting agenda
MikeD-2 says, "In order to avoid abuse you would have a second, private,
area for chapter leaders to signup new members" kokhmmm says, "I see. That
should work." Scottyg-1 says, "Yes, we could provide an alternate entry
point for the registration system accessible only to chapter leaders."
MikeD-2 says, "I think each chapter could have it's own login and password
which would allow tracking" Greg-1 says, "I have a policy question in the
Membership Services area: Would we consider a complementary membership for
someone who makes a substantial contribution to the Moon Society's work?"
kokhmmm says, "The rate I am suggesting is the same we offer to students
and seniors." MikeD-2 says, "I would Greg"
kokhmmm says, "Only for new chapter recruits it would be available first
year only. Then $35 (unless student or senior)" Greg-1 says, "There are two
sides to that issue: On the one hand, it's a minor encouragement to get
people to do neat stuff. On the other hand, we'd be constantly faced with
having to decide what a "substantial contribution" is." MikeD-2 says, "we'd
have to predefine substantial" kokhmmm says, "Greg, I like that idea, so
long as it isn't overused." Greg-1 says, "That's hard to do, Mike." Greg-1
says, "The specific case is Mary Cooper again. She is building a 3D,
interactive, online lunar world." Greg-1 says, "That's SUBSTANTIAL!"
MikeD-2 says, "If you calculate it as $s/hr for hours worked, Randall has
enough credit to give us all free memberships" MikeD-2 says, "That's
substantial, if she finishes it" Greg-1 says, "FYI, Mary Cooper is
grandmamojo in ASI MOO." MikeD-2 says, "or gets it to a point where the
rest of us can finish it" Greg-1 says, "Have you visited the world, Mike?"
MikeD-2 says, "no I haven't, I didn;t know I could" Greg-1 says, "Right
now, you can wander around on a lunar landscape under a dome." Greg-1 says,
"She is looking for guidance to build the Luna City Hotel." MikeD-2 says,
"I thought we said domes didn't work?" Greg-1 says, "Right. I told her
that."
Greg-1 says, "So part of that guidance would be to build a cavern." Greg-1
says, "Which I just told her."
kokhmmm says, "They don't unless they are pseudo domes, spheres in which
the bottom half if utilities, factories and other out of sight things below
a public landscape." Scottyg-1 says, "Greg, is the "wander around under a
dome" a 3D implementation?" Greg-1 says, "Peter, right."
john-r says, "Greg do you mean no cost for say 1 year -- or 20 for the st
yr?" john-r says, "st=1st"
MikeD-2 says, "John, if she pulls this off properly, I'd say
life-membership" MikeD-2 says, "either that or royalties from the earnings"
kokhmmm says, "Wil access to this arena be free, or will it require
membership?" MikeD-2 says, "I would suggest access on a pay per bandwidth
used basis" Greg-1 says, "Peter, she says how about a public visitors
center and the rest of the world members-only?" Greg-1 says, "People could
have their own apartments and decorate them they way they want to in the
members-only area." MikeD-2 says, "is this a bit like the Active Worlds
idea?" kokhmmm says, "I like that idea, Greg. " MikeD-2 says, "It's what
the MOO should be" MikeD-2 says, "But the MOO can't support that" Greg-1
says, "Yeah, it sounds really great." Greg-1 says, "She would create a
world using Adobe Atmosphere, not the MOO." MikeD-2 says, "can we visit
what she's done already?" Greg-1 says, "We'd have to work the login control
software." Greg-1 says, "Maybe that could use the MOO membership datbase."
kokhmmm says, "Would the visitor need special software?" MikeD-2 says,
"Adobe Atmosphere is ok, Active Worlds is better, but they'll only host it
themseves or charge $20000" MikeD-2 says, "You'd need Adobe Atmosphere
client" Nancy-1 says, "
http://www.artistichabitats.com/Atmosphere/AH3d/Lunar/LunaCity_Launcher.html"
Greg-1 says, "The launcher automagically takes you to the Atmosphere
client." MikeD-2 says, "I guess I need the plugin" Greg-1 says, "The better
your graphics card and the faster your machine, the better it works."
MikeD-2 says, "Not in Linux it doesn't" Greg-1 says, "Oh. Yeah."
Greg-1 says, "I've only tried it in Windows." Nancy-1 says, "Atmosphere
client is needed first:
http://www.artistichabitats.com/Atmosphere/AtmospherePlayer216.zip" Greg-1
says, "You can also get the player from the Adobe site, but sometimes the
Adobe site can't get through firewalls." Greg-1 says, "Pop-up blockers can
stop it, too." john-r [to keep]: the meeting -tonight rolling- i lkie the
concept, but need to conside how it may help to bring in paying members
MikeD-2 says, "Ah, popup blockers, that could explain it" Greg-1 says,
"John, I'm thinking screen shots and a free public area." Greg-1 says, "...
to bring in members." Greg-1 says, "I think what to do with it would be up
to us, but Mary seems eager to create it." john-r says, "ahh"
kokhmmm says, "What is her name for this environment?" Greg-1 says,
"Whatever we want it to be." john-r says, "i need to make a phone call,"
john-r says, "bib"
MikeD-2 says, "John, it's definitely for DLSer" john-r has disconnected.
Greg-1 says, "How about 'Luna City'?"
MikeD-2 says, "John, it's definitely for DLSers" MikeD-2 says, "rats"
kokhmmm says, "DLSers or DSLers?"
Greg-1 says, "dizzlers?"
MikeD-2 says, "DSLers"
MikeD-2 says, "ok, it doesn't work with Linux and it froze my Windows
machine" kokhmmm says, "I gave up cable but will have DSL by next meeting"
MikeD-2 says, "It also only seems to work with MSIE" kokhmmm says, "Will it
work on Mac?"
Greg-1 says, "Peter, that's the serious shortcoming of Adobe Atmosphere."
MikeD-2 says, "I'm hoping to give up DSL for cable, the cable over here is
almost 3 times faster than the DSL" Greg-1 says, "Mary expects that there
will be a Mac client by the end of the year but right now they are working
on standardizing the definition of the 3D environment." Greg-1 says, "It'll
probably be OS-X only." john-r has connected.
kokhmmm says, "Well that seriously limits its ability to draw in new
members, or even visitors, especially if it gets a lot of people
frustrated." kokhmmm says, "I have OS-X"
Greg-1 says, "Yeah, I'm guessing that most Mac users have gone to OS-X by
now, so that's good." Greg-1 says, "(I'm a curmudgeon. Still running OS
9.2. But I have a fleet of Windows boxes.)" kokhmmm says, "With flowers or
just green stuff?" Greg-1 says, "I've had to bite bitter bullet and
acknowledge that great majority of folks use Windows. :(" Severy-6 chuckles.
Greg-1 says, "Kinda moldy-looking, Peter." Severy-6 says, "That must have
hurt, Greg! :-)" kokhmmm says, "You can run windows on OS-X, Greg, that's
why many are returning." Greg-1 says, "It hurts daily, Randall." john-r
says, "can i have ice creame? please" Greg-1 says, "Randall, Mary Cooper
says Hi!" MikeD-2 says, "nah, it kay eye double ells my windows box for
some reason" Greg-1 says, "(By now everyone has figured out what the
business call is about, altough we called Mary about totally different
stuff.)" kokhmmm says, "Hi, Mary"
Severy-6 says, "Hi, Mary!"
MikeD-2 says, "Hi Mary"
Greg-1 says, "Gaelan says Hi, too."
Greg-1 says, "(Please forgive me for dominating the meeting with this. It
was a target of opportunity, y'see.)" MikeD-2 says, "Hi Smeddum"
Greg-1 says, "Hmm... if all the folks who are interested are signed in to
the lunar environment I can stop yakking about it here." MikeD-2 says, "I
can't get into it, my computer keeps freezing" Greg-1 says, "That happens
after sunset on the moon, Mike." Severy-6 laughs.
Greg-1 says, "It also happens when you try to run six dozen operating
systems on the same machine!" Severy-6 says, "I went into a building, and
it's frozen at the moment, it may be downloading something" Greg-1 says,
"Randall, that's probably it." Severy-6 says, "Yup, it's back"
irs says, "So, it's neat? I don't even try looking at graphics from this
computer, let alone interactive 3-d whatevers." Greg-1 says, "Mary says,
"You know what prototypes are all about." This is a prototype, but it give
us a window where we can look forward to what we can do with the
technology." Severy-6 says, "It's dark in there :-)" Nancy-1 says, "Yes,
it's really neat!"
Severy-6 says, "Ooh, pretty stars!"
Greg-1 says, "My God! It's full of stars!" Severy-6 laughs.
kokhmmm says, "Are there any other kind? (of stars?)" Greg-1 says, "Look
around. You'll see the Earth." Greg-1 says, "The tower is 400 feet high."
Greg-1 says, "You can jump off it."
Greg-1 says, "It won't hurt. Much."
Severy-6 says, "Yeah, I saw the Earth"
Greg-1 says, "Randall, look for the colored squares to find the entrance to
the elevator." Greg-1 says, "The rotating colored squares indicate a
portal." MikeD-2 says, "from 400 feet altitude on the moon, what would your
final velocity be?" Severy-6 says, "Yeah, I figured that part out :-)"
Greg-1 says, "The Earth is actually a 3D object. Gaelen was sitting on it.
:)" Greg-1 says, "(I'm not in there right now. If I loaded it on this
little machine it would hose the MOO.)" Greg-1 says, "Mike, let's see...
v^2 = 2 * a

* s..." MikeD-2 says, "problem is I don't know the lunar equivalent of g"
kokhmmm says, "1/6th approximately" MikeD-2 says, "which means you'd only
reach about 1/36th the velocity?" kokhmmm says, "1/6th of 32 ft per second
squared" MikeD-2 says, "oh god, you guys use imperial equations, I forgot"
Severy-6 says, "I seem to have ended up back outside the tower, so I guess
I went off the roof somehow" Greg-1 says, "Using 1/6 g, falling 400 feet
gives a final velocity of 65.5 feet per second." Greg-1 says, "Roughly 20
m/sec" Greg-1 says, "*splat*"
MikeD-2 says, "that's still pretty fast" Greg-1 says, "That's discounting
air drag." kokhmmm says, "We are 1 hr and 37 minutes into our session
tonight. How about us getting back to work?" Severy-6 says, "Yup, where
were we? Still on Membership Processing?" kokhmmm says, "Let's move on to
registration options." Greg-1 says, "Good idea, Peter! :)"
kokhmmm says, "I brought up the $20 electronic first year only option for
those recruited by chapters and local contacts" kokhmmm says, "Does this
need more consideration or can we send it to the Board?" Greg-1 says, "I'm
a little confused about how we distinguish people recruited by chapters and
local contacts." MikeD-2 says, "it involves some work for Randall and
Scotty" kokhmmm says, "If the Board considers it, I'd like us also to look
at giving the registering person the option of adding additional money for
special purposes chosen by the member" MikeD-2 says, "They would only join
from a certain page with certain private chapter logins" kokhmmm says,
"Mike suggested that the chapter leader or local contact have a way to
confirm that the recruit is just that." Greg-1 says, "Hmm... so we'd need
to write some new software." Greg-1 says, "Which means it might be at least
a couple of months before we could even get started on implementing it."
MikeD-2 says, "I think it could backfire in about a year Peter, they
wouldn't renew when the bill for $35 arrived" Greg-1 says, "(Swampado, the
sequel. I keep Scotty nicely swamped, too.)" Greg-1 says, "We could
consider a variation on a theme. Charge everybody the same but reward
recruiters." kokhmmm says, "Mike, it's our business to give them enough
value and satisfaction so that they do renew. NSS has been using this
option for years." Greg-1 says, "Oh! So if I want to join NSS (again) does
that mean I should find a local chapter and get a cheaper rate?" kokhmmm
says, "The $20 electronic membership is like a test drive, or trial offer.
Such offers are almost universal in business" Greg-1 says, "Hmm... on the
other hand, NSS membership has been declining along with everybody else's,
so that might not be an endorsement of the policy." kokhmmm says, "Not
available to anyone already in our database, Greg" Greg-1 says, "Rats! :)"
Greg-1 says, "So really it's an 'introductory membership'." kokhmmm says,
"I say we have little to lose. We also need to grow the chapters, and this
would help them " MikeD-2 says, "that's true"
Greg-1 says, "Would we be better off just having a shorter-term
introductory membership? Say six months at half price?" kokhmmm says, "Yes,
but an introductory membership only available thru chapters" Greg-1 says,
"It really sounds like a good program to me." Scottyg-1 says, "I would
support it with one provision..." kokhmmm says, "We could do that Greg, but
we risk that six months may not be long enough for the recruit to really
see what we are about" Greg-1 says, "Although the idea of an $18, 6-month,
non-voting membership would probably accomplish the same thing." Scottyg-1
says, "We designate it to be a one-year trial and reconsider at the end of
the year." Severy-6 finally managed to stand on top of the world! Sorry, I
digress :-) kokhmmm says, "Non-voting is a trivial thing, especially since
for half the people, their six months might not include an election"
kokhmmm says, "We lose no more than we now do with students and seniors, as
it included electronic newsletter only." dcarson says, "I'd say lets try
it, we need to try things to get membership up" kokhmmm says, "If they want
hardcopy, they come in at $35 like everyone else." MikeD-2 says, "if we do
this, i suggest making hardcopy the default for regula North American
members" garygray says, "I think Dana ans Scotty have the right idea, let;s
give it a try!" irs says, "Mensa doesn't offer a discounted "trial"
membership. It offers only membership at the annual rate, and discounted
rates for renewals longer than one years. SFWA doesn't offer a discounted
membership; only an annual or a lifetime membership. Are we selling Moon
Society membership as a magazine subscription (the model that I know which
does offer discounted intro offers) or as membership in a valuable
organization (in which case, is the intro discount offer going to put us in
the wrong light)?" kokhmmm says, "The whole idea here is to help chapters
and outposts grow!!!!!" MikeD-2 says, "maybe we should charge more and
include Artemis magazine with membership" john-r says,
"xbbbbbb1111111111111s"
Greg-1 says, "010011100100111010100100" MikeD-2 says, "the main thing is we
need to do *something*" dcarson wonders if John needs the Heimlich manuver
Scottyg-1 says, "One question we really don't have any data to answer
is....what effect does dues have on membership?" john-r says, "sorry"
kokhmmm says, "The Moon Society need not publicize this offer. It is for
chapter and outpost people to use to recruit." MikeD-2 says, "John saw a
can of Duff"
john-r says, "thta was my wifes pet rabit" Greg-1 says, "I'm puzzing over
that same question, Scotty." john-r says, "rabbit"
Scottyg-1 says, "I simply don't know if lower dues will be an incentive or
not at our present dues rate." Greg-1 says, "It might be that there's no
difference between $20 and $35, but the availability of a discount could be
attractive." kokhmmm says, "Scotty, the chapters (currently only 1) and
outposts need to grow or we should drop them as a farce. " Greg-1 says, "In
other words, it's not the amount of the dues but rather the avialability of
a discount." MikeD-2 says, "Might we be better to charge a little more and
present ourselves as more exclusive than the rest?" irs says, "So try it. I
do know that Mensa membership was declining for years, but leveled off
about a ten years ago, and has been slowly increasing since. SFWA
membership has been pretty much steady for the past ten or fifteen years."
kokhmmm says, "Again, this will not be an incentive for visitors, only for
people recruited by chapters and outposts." Greg-1 says, "How many Mensans
and SFWAns are there, Ian?" MikeD-2 says, "you have to pass a test to be
allowed spend money?" garygray says, "The idea of a first year sicount is
to help chapters to gain new members?" kokhmmm says, "Yes, Gary, only that."
MikeD-2 says, "but it also gains new members for the whole organization"
kokhmmm says, "Of course, Mike!"
Greg-1 says, "The other side of the question is 'What does it cost us to
implement this for a year to see if it works?'" irs says, "50,000 Mensans;
1,500 SFWAns." garygray says, "I don't know if it will work but it's worth
a try to get more members!" irs says, "So go for it."
MikeD-2 says, "it will cost the time to setup the website for chapter
leaders to use" kokhmmm says, "Nothing. They do not get a hardcopy. We pay
LRS only 25 cents a month for their pdf file access." Greg-1 says, "The
only cost I see is the time we'll need to invest in the accounting."
kokhmmm says, "The rest of the $20 ($17) is ours to keep." Greg-1 says,
"The labor cost to implement is not trivial but it seems like it's worth a
try." MikeD-2 says, "I'm less interested in the $17 than the extra members"
kokhmmm says, "How is that different from the time spent in accounting for
students and seniors who now enjoy that rate?" MikeD-2 says, "what are we
going to do about the google ads btw?" kokhmmm says, "The ads are paid for
by _____?" garygray says, "I think should continue it for a whule longer!"
MikeD-2 says, "I disagree"
john-r says, "i agree on goggle continue, it takes ime to sink in" garygray
says, "And try to determine why we nit gettin g ant responses, We have a
message!" kokhmmm says, "Do you think the test has run long enough, Mike/"
MikeD-2 says, "I don;t think we've even got one new member for our $200"
Scottyg-1 says, "My take on the dues question is this...It wouldn't make
much difference in my decision to join or renew Moon Society whether the
dues were $20.00 or $50.00. What makes a very big difference to me is
whether I perceive that the organization is accomplishing something useful.
And for that purpose, growing membership is not defined as useful.
Accomplishing something worthwhile outside the internal concerns of the
organization is worthwhile." Greg-1 says, "I have to agree with that,
Scotty." MikeD-2 says, "in other words we need to start working on some
projects" Scottyg-1 says, "A discount might push me over the hump if I was
already sitting on it, but I think most potential members are not close to
that point." kokhmmm says, "You guys are out of touch with reality. A lot
of potential members do not have the discretionary income to take that
attitude about dues." SJ has arrived.
Greg-1 says, "I think building the 3D realm that shows people what it will
be like to live in the Luna City Cavern would count as 'something useful'
that's within our current capabilities." SJ greets. Apologies. Dealing with
unexpected resignation . . . not a good week around here. Greg-1 says, "We
tried to do that in the MOO but folks balked at applying any rigor to the
development, and it's actually more labor-intensive to to the MOO than to
build the 3D world." Greg-1 says, "Hi Steve! Sorry to hear that! :("
Nancy-1 says, "Hi Steve!"
MikeD-2 says, "programming the MOO is a pain" Scottyg-1 says, "I can only
deal with my reality Peter, not everyone else's. I'm not a wealthy person
by any means, but $50.00 is only cigarette money for a week." MikeD-2 says,
"Greg, perhaps we need to look outside the box a bit and stretch our
capabilities" Scottyg-1 says, "Oops, $20.00 is cigarette money...." kokhmmm
says, "Can we give it a one year test, I can't scrape up a spare $50
without 2 months notice." Scottyg-1 says, "I agreed to a one year test."
kokhmmm says, "And it'll b e 50 years this December since I smoked!"
Scottyg-1 says, "But I think we are beating the wrong horse." MikeD-2 says,
"someone tell Steve about the 3D thing" Greg-1 says, "Oh, right. In a
nutshell: We are talking about building the Luna City Cavern in an on-line
Adobe Atmosphere environment." Greg-1 says, "A rough prototype is on line
now." MikeD-2 says, "
http://www.artistichabitats.com/Atmosphere/AH3d/Lunar/LunaCity_Launcher.html"
Greg-1 says, "
http://www.artistichabitats.com/Atmosphere/AH3d/Lunar/LunaCity_Launcher.html"
garygray says, "I think it's both new members and project, The problem is
which to do first.!" Nancy-1 says, "
http://www.artistichabitats.com/Atmosphere/AH3d/Lunar/LunaCity_Launcher.html"
MikeD-2 says, "Winders only I'm afraid" MikeD-2 says, "Winders and MSIE"
Greg-1 says, "It really requires a high-end Windows box with hotrod
graphics card." SJ is on mac; if someone will mail me that thing, I will
look at it later on a Win box. Heh, or maybe not - I have no access to a
high-end Winbox. kokhmmm says, "Why do we need to choose, Gary? We need to
work on all fronts if we are going to break out of our slump. " MikeD-2
says, "So my 64MB ATI card in my 2GHz 512 MB machine isn't good enough?"
Greg-1 says, "That oughtta do it, Mike, depending on the ATI card."
garygray says, "Peter you are right we need ti do bith at the same time!"
MikeD-2 says, "I think the ATI card is 50% of my trouble" Greg-1 says,
"Steve, Nancy will email that URL to you." MikeD-2 says, "we need to
recruit and also give out existing members an incentive to stay" Scottyg-1
says, "You folks might be able to tell that I'm somewhat frustrated. In 4
years, the Moon Society has accomplished nothing except building
infrastructure. Its time we change that." Greg-1 says, "You can run it on a
slower machine, but it will be kinda slow and jumpy unless you have a
fairly hot graphics card." john-r says, "I am for trying yje chapters
/otpost 20 for the 1st year, its not a public thing, its limited to the
chapters coord - Peter and the chapter team leaders" Greg-1 says, "Scotty,
I agree. Do you have a specific new program in mind?" john-r says, "Good
Point Scotty"
garygray says, "Scotty I agree with you and the two new projects are a
start!" Greg-1 says, "That's the question we've struggled with for a long
time. What to do with the talent we have." MikeD-2 says, "kick out all the
freeloaders and start over?" kokhmmm says, "That's why I am trying to
introduce doable projects" MikeD-2 says, "design a spaceship"
MikeD-2 says, "are we too lofty?"
Greg-1 says, "In the past every time we've tried to start a new project, it
has resulted in folks going off to do their own thing and actually reducing
the manpower we can put on the Society's work." Scottyg-1 says, "No Greg,
thats part of my frustration. I can't think of anything really worthwhile
that we can afford to do." SJ read the account of the St. Louis convention.
I go to a lot of conventions; I'll be at one this weekend. If I had
something interesting to say or show, I would be happy to do so, just as I
talk about Alcor when I go to conventions. Greg-1 says, "Scotty, yeah.
That's why I was thinking the 3D world would be a good thing." MikeD-2
says, "Greg, Moon Society needs a project of it's own that all members can
work on and will not become another entity" Greg-1 says, "That's another
good point, Steve. We need to update our presentation materials." Greg-1
says, "I think we're still using material that I developed around 1996."
kokhmmm says, "This virtual world is cute, but only a place to escape to
instead of doing something that could count." Greg-1 says, "Peter, I'm
thinking that we need to get folks involved by providing them
entertainment." MikeD-2 says, "it's also only suitable for members with
fast connections" SJ says, "What happened to the "Moon Sims" group that was
floating around for a while? I ask because Sims 2 seems to be huge right
now." MikeD-2 says, "Moon Sims -> Simshost -> Greg" Greg-1 says, "Steve,
Moon Sims is still there at http://moonsims.asi.org/" garygray says, "Maybe
we should make a shirt list of projects we would like to do . Put $
figutres on them. And decide if you have the resources for a project or
could get resources for a project.!" john-r says, "i need to use the phone
again back in a bit" Greg-1 says, "That tale grew in the telling. See
http://www.simshost.com/" john-r has disconnected.
kokhmmm says, "People can find entertainment for free. What they want is a
chance to help make the dream happen." MikeD-2 says, "shouldn't we be
tinkering with electronic stuff or communications or research or analysis
or hardware?" kokhmmm says, "I am not at all opposed to the Lunar
simulation. But it will not satisfy those who yearn to belong to an
organization that is trying to go somewhere." Greg-1 says, "Peter, I'm
thinking that we can reasonably expect that about 5% of the members of an
all-volunteer organization will actually do something. The rest provide the
financial basis for that work and an audience that provides the encouraging
applause." john-r has connected.
SJ looks at simshost front page. Okay, clearly you're all over that
already. MikeD-2 says, "I'm trying to get back into electronics and play
with robots, i can think of several people who can work with me in an
online co-operation" Greg-1 says, "Steve, yeah. The Sims 2 is taking over
that community." Greg-1 says, "I'm also thinking that we need an
attractor." Greg-1 says, "An online 3D lunar environment is interesting
enough to attract some media attention." Greg-1 says, "It also can be an
educational outlet. Mary says she could set up a guided tour, once we have
a lunar city to tour." MikeD-2 says, "3D stuff hasn't fared well over the
last 4 years, a lot of companies went bust, those that survive are scraping
by" Greg-1 says, "That happens in the market for all new technologies,
Mike." kokhmmm says, "Unfortunately, what succeeds is violence. Ours would
be peaceful and engross only nerds" MikeD-2 says, "Atmosphere hasn't had an
update for almost 2 years, Active Worlds is just the same as it was but
with fewer members and fewer worlds" Greg-1 says, "The guided tour could be
very educational, and attract school classes to visit." garygray says,
"Greg I think a 3 D lunar envirnoment is a good idea. But it's not the sole
method of achejinf the Societ goals.!" Greg-1 says, "Gary, it's the only
thing I can think of that we can do right now with the resources
available." Greg-1 says, "We need to focus on some project and get it
working instead of burying ourselves in lots of projects that nobody has
time to do." john-r needs to sleep, lots of good things in the works, night
all dcarson says, "everyone think of things an email them to leaders for
next meeting?" john-r has disconnected.
garygray says, "Well, until we know what projects re or could be useful, we
din't know if we can get new resources.!" dcarson says, "and then we can
see what one(s0 to focus on" MikeD-2 says, "yes, but we need to get more
people involved in the project and also try to get it into our domain so
our own people can work on it, not just Mary" kokhmmm says, "I've received
only positive, enthused email so far Greg. " SJ gets mail from Nancy re
Lunar City. Thanks. kokhmmm has disconnected.
Nancy-1 says, "You're welcome, Steve."
garygray says, "Mike that's the 'problem' getting people and /or money to
do projects or to do projects to get people and money!" MikeD-2 says, "is
someone going to send me those word docs" irs says, "I'm gonna have to get
some sleep. Sorry to have been so absent the last few weeks; after the
broken computer, others things have popped up. And while I'll again be
off-line next Wednesday night, I hope to more available in the future. As
always, I do read my e-mail, and the telephone works just fine. Good night,
all." MikeD-2 says, "chicken'n'egg"
irs has disconnected.
Greg-1 says, "Darn, we lost Peter. I didn't understand his note about
email." Severy-6 says, "Who has the latest renewal letter templates? Greg?
Scotty? Nancy?" MikeD-2 says, "I agree we should try his idea, I just think
we need to do other stuff too" garygray says, "Tea, hopefully Peter will be
back soon.!" Greg-1 says, "Lemme look, Randall. I think I have them." The
housekeeper arrives to cart john-r off to bed. Greg-1 says, "Merde. I can't
find 'em. :(" dcarson says, "your robotics mention has made me think,
design and build a micro-rover?" The housekeeper arrives to cart kokhmmm
off to bed. Greg-1 says, "That would be neat, Dana, but I don't think we
have the resources avialable right now." SJ says, "This is a tautology, but
people won't get involved in something unless it can involve them. Either
their help has to be really useful, or it has to be FUN." Greg-1 says,
"Randall, can we install this 3D gizmo on PB7?" The housekeeper arrives to
cart irs off to bed. garygray says, "That's probably true, Greg. but what
resources to we need?!" Greg-1 [to develop]: a microrover robot, we'd need
a team of electronics and mechanical engineers who have the time and talent
to put into it. We'd need a project leader. We'd need someone to design the
mission and create the specifications. Severy-6 says, "What are the server
components of the 3D gizmo, Greg?" MikeD-2 says, "exactly Dana, how about a
teleoperated microrover, we could simulate the comms delay over the
interent" MikeD-2 says, "internet too"
Greg-1 says, "For it to be a convincing lunar exploration robot we'd need
lots of money for photocells and communication electronics." MikeD-2 says,
"Greg, it doesn't have to be very convincing, it just has to be a hands on
research project" SJ says, "Would it be easier to build one, or to sim one?
A real one would be neater, but a sim one could serve many users at once."
Greg-1 says, "Randall, the Adobe Atmosphere server is available for free
from Adobe. We need to request their permission and they'll give us access
to the software. I don't know what the software is." Greg-1 says, "That's a
neat idea, Steve." MikeD-2 says, "Steve we could sim one with an aim to
build it when the sim is completed sucessfully" dcarson says, "the
threashing out the mission and specs for the reference mission was I think
part of what kept people interested when we started" Greg-1 says, "Mike,
yeah."
SJ says, "A sim one, of course, could be placed in any environment, with
any delay . . ." dcarson says, "so it might get people interested doing
that again" garygray says, "I think it's something we can really look into
it!" Greg-1 says, "Steve, Mary Cooper says she already knows how we could
do that in Adobe Atmosphere." SJ says, "Cool."
Greg-1 says, "That would be neat. You could drive a little rover around on
the lunar surface and manipulate things. Or you could take the elevator
down to the cavern and decorate your lunar home. Lots of entertainment and
lots of education." garygray says, "It's late and I need to leave. Good
night, all!" garygray has disconnected.
SJ says, "Race rovers."
SJ says, "Treasure hunt competition with rovers." Greg-1 says, "Erm...
battlebots? :)"
Greg-1 says, "Car Wars on the moon! :)" SJ was SO not going there.
MikeD-2 says, "Amy and Andy might be able to help also" Greg-1 says,
"Sorry, I couldn't resist it. :)" SJ says, "It would add interest, at the
risk of bruising the theme." Greg-1 says, "That's a good point, Mike. It
can't hurt to have a couple of MIT PhD robot technonerds as advisors. :)"
MikeD-2 says, "Also, Dave had made a start on one himself" MikeD-2 says,
"but that was actual hardware" MikeD-2 says, "thing is, it's something that
our techy types could work on and also someting our non-techy types could
test by playing with it" Scottyg-1 says, "I think its time for me to call
it quits for the evening. G'nite!" Greg-1 says, "G'night, Scotty!"
MikeD-2 says, "If you can idiotproof it enough so Ken Williams Jr can't
break it then it's a tank" Greg-1 says, "Huh?"
The housekeeper arrives to cart garygray off to bed. MikeD-2 says, "lol"
Nancy-1 says, "Good night, Scotty."
MikeD-2 says, "Hast thou forgotten Ken so soon?" Greg-1 says, "I haven't
forgotten Ken. I was wondering what we need to idiotproof and what it means
to be a tank." MikeD-2 says, "a tank, as in tough"
MikeD-2 says, "idiotproof the robot"
Greg-1 says, "Oh! I get it!"
SJ says, "Less fun to drive if it's idiotproof. You ought to be able to
send it down a crevasse." MikeD-2 says, "aww heck, I'm on my second wind
now" Greg-1 says, "You're thinking that a remotely controllable robot needs
to sufficiently robust that a casual user can't break it. No arguement
there!" MikeD-2 says, "You want to ba able to send it down a crevasse, but
you want to be able to get it back up too" SJ says, "And you don't want to
give people the idea that NASA's job is easy. OK, are we talking about a
real robot or a sim?" Greg-1 says, "Steve, that would make a great
challenge to build into the simulated robot." MikeD-2 says, "Steve, yse"
MikeD-2 says, "Steve, yes too"
Greg-1 says, "The last thing you see on your view screen is the bottom of
the Hadley Rille approaching you at 100 mph." SJ says, "A real robot is not
expendable. A sim is like a flight simulator - if you can't crash it, it's
not much good." SJ says, "Greg, right!"
Severy-6 says, "Greg, I have printed off the Atmosphere Server agreement
and I'll fill it out and mail it to Adobe" Greg-1 says, "Thanks, Randall!
That's great!" MikeD-2 says, "it doesn't say what it runs on does it
Randall?" Nancy-1 says, "Oh goody!!"
SJ hmms. Would you be falling at anywhere near 100mph? Never mind, geek
question. Greg-1 says, "Randall, Mary says she is sending you a cyberkiss.
:)" Severy-6 says, "No, Mike, I'm still trying to find details, but they
provide the source, so hopefully it will be easy enough to compile on pb7"
MikeD-2 says, "ah, I didn't see the part about the source" Greg-1 says,
"Steve, yes, we figured that out a little earlier in the meeting. Falling
400 feet in lunar gravity gives a final velocity of 65.5 ft/sec. So about
50 mph." SJ says, "That sounds more credible. Of course, if you gunned your
engine first you'd have a horizontal component. Still, plenty fast enough
to smash you." SJ imagines showing the bottom of the rille as full of
wrecked rovers . . . ! Greg-1 says, "LOL"
MikeD-2 says, "about the same as falling from 67 ft on earth" dcarson says,
"so your second trip is to salvage all the parts left from the first trip"
MikeD-2 says, "or a 10-12 story building" Greg-1 says, "Dana, yes! Great
idea!"
MikeD-2 says, "it has to be possible, but difficult, for the rover to climb
back up" dcarson says, "this looks like we like playing with it, so maybe
the membership would also" dcarson says, "why don't we start a thread on
the main list" Greg-1 says, "Dana, I'm thinking we should keep the project
quiet until there's something that people can play with." Greg-1 says,
"Marketing equation: satisfaction = experience - expectations" Greg-1 says,
"You don't want to raise people's expectations before there is something
for them to experience." dcarson says, "I thought that part of playing
would be the design, that got lotrs of interst for the reference mission"
SJ says, "How many people can work on the design?" MikeD-2 says, "we need
to approach some of the more qualified members in this regard first,
designing the look and feel and even some of the capabilities could be part
of the fun, but the core needs to be in place first" SJ says, "Is it better
to get something work - What Mike said." MikeD-2 says, "not sure Steve,
we'd need Amy and Andy to point us in the right direction first" Greg-1
says, "Yeah. This broth won't turn out too well with too many cooks."
MikeD-2 says, "The sim software is critical, I believe there are already
some available, but I don't know where. The gui and the game aspect can
come later" MikeD-2 says, "Amy has been back on the last couple of days, so
I may get a chance to ask her" MikeD-2 says, "her time is somewhat limited
though" dcarson says, "new baby, new job, new house, what could be keepin
her busy" Greg-1 says, "She's spending all her time playing The Sims 2."
MikeD-2 says, "
http://www.adobe.com/products/atmosphere/showcase/featuredworlds/rc_cars/index.html
looks like it might be worth looking at for ideas" MikeD-2 says, "then
there's http://www.driveonmars.com/" Severy-6 just turned on gravity while
flying around the top of the tower :-) Severy-6 says, "He bounced four
stories :-)" Greg-1 says, "LOL"
MikeD-2 says, "after you hit the ground?" Greg-1 says, "That RC car racing
environment on the Adobe site looks like a perfect foundation for driving a
lunar robot." Greg-1 says, "Mary Cooper says we can do that." MikeD-2 says,
"the http://www.driveonmars.com/ one would give some ideas for a real
robotic rover" Severy-6 says, "Yes, after I hit the ground, Mike :-)"
MikeD-2 says, "I wonder has gravity been reduced to 1/6th" SJ says, "Now.
Can we find real moon maps and something to let us translate them into real
rover environments?" Severy-6 says, "Doesn't look like it, Mike, I fell
pretty fast :-)" Greg-1 says, "Steve, yes, I think we can do that."
Severy-6 says, "I just tried it again, this time walking off the edge of
the top platform :-)" SJ imagines a group cooperating, taking shifts,
driving a rover pole to pole. SJ says, "For charity?"
MikeD-2 says, "that's tricky, the best moon maps are hard to convert, and
all the rest are the equivalent on a large globe, not enough detail by far"
MikeD-2 says, "Moon maps are a Dale or Vic job" SJ says, "Then the next
question would be: can we get the gross info in there and fake the detail
convincingly?" Greg-1 says, "Right. The last time I checked -- several
years ago -- there was not a good detailed lunar globe available." Greg-1
says, "We'd have to develop our own, and fake a lot of it." Greg-1 says,
"Oh. What Steve said."
Greg-1 says, "It would be neat to be able to tour around and see the
landing sites and crash sites." SJ says, "This gets back to what I was
talking about last time: if we had a *whole moon* in sim, people could
build their own colonies wherever . . ." MikeD-2 says, "the best moon data
is only about 150MB in total, and it's in some sort of special format that
only people with Windows 3.1 can decode" SJ says, "Cooperate to create
transportation systems . . ." Greg-1 says, "Oh yes! Once we get that
started we could build the translunar tram lines!" Greg-1 says, "And have
places where you could drive a rover and get out at the tourist traps."
MikeD-2 says, "why trams when you can launch into the sky so easily" Greg-1
says, "Because if you launch on a rocket you have to land on a rocket."
MikeD-2 says, "so"
Greg-1 says, "That rocket-supported vehicle that they showed in 2001 was
kinda silly." Greg-1 says, "It would need to get to orbital velocity to
avoid burning incredible amounts of fuel on a trip like they showed in the
movie." MikeD-2 can't remember that
MikeD-2 says, "ah, yes, for short trips rockets are about as useless as
747s on earth" Greg-1 says, "I'm thinking of the vehicle that they took out
to see the monolith." Greg-1 says, "It was a bus with lots of rocket
nozzles on the bottom. Dumb." SJ says, "If we're getting fancy, of course,
you can drive real "manned" vehicles as well as the rover." Greg-1 says,
"That's what I was thinking, Steve." Greg-1 says, "The vehicles could grow
as the world grows." SJ says, "Perhaps anybody can drive a rover. Guest
privs, so to speak. But you have to create a character on the Moon to drive
a Moon vehicle." MikeD-2 says, "I know what you're talking about, I just
can't recall it right now, I'll have to watch it again, after I exchange my
disfunctional DVDRW drive" Greg-1 says, "The potential for generating
interest in the moon is amazing." MikeD-2 says, "all that centers around
believable lunar terrains" MikeD-2 says, "I think I have the lunar
topography data on a CD somewhere, but I've never been able to make use of
it" Greg-1 says, "That would be a start, Mike." Greg-1 says, "We need a
lunar surface that we can explore and also dig into." Greg-1 says, "We can
make guesses about lava caves near the surface." Greg-1 says, "And the
details of other obstacle.s" Greg-1 says, "obstacles."
Nancy-1 says, "I'm sleepy! Good night, all!" dcarson says, "gnight"
SJ says, "It would be interesting to write an algorithm creating believable
terrain which would then have to be discovered." SJ says, "We know there
are lava tubes around here somewhere . . . " Greg-1 says, "Yes, exactly
that, Steve." Greg-1 says, "We might even guess right in a few cases! :)"
Greg-1 says, "For instance, I expect that we will find lots of lava tubes
at the perimeter of the great impact basins, where there was a lot of magma
flowing a few billion years ago." MikeD-2 says, "I dont quite understand
how lava tubes form" SJ says, "Obviously we will have to document the
assumptions that go into our terrain generation, so the users can argue!"
dcarson says, "the top and sides of the flow cool first and the inside
keeps flowing" MikeD-2 says, "ah, ok"
Greg-1 says, "That'll keep 'em interested for years! :)" MikeD-2 says,
"thus leaving a hollow structure rathe like a large cocoon" Greg-1 says,
"Sort of like how the answer to the ultimate question of life, the
universe, and everything kept philosophers employed for 10 million years."
Greg-1 says, "Mike: http://www.asi.org/adb/02/01/lava-tube-formation.html"
MikeD-2 says, "10 *million*?"
Greg-1 says, "That was from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." MikeD-2
says, "oh, right"
MikeD-2 says, "which is set in the far far distant future" SJ says,
"Actually, the recent past, but who's counting?" Greg-1 says, "Well,
actually, the setting for the adventures of Arthur Dent starts with
approximately tomorrow." SJ says, "It just assumes the galaxy has been
civilized for a long, long time." SJ says, "Well, it might be in the near
future, but I think it was about 15 years ago and we just didn't notice
when the world ended." SJ <- not helping here!
MikeD-2 says, "ok, that little animated graphic explains a lot to me"
Greg-1 says, "Not a bit, Steve! :)"
Greg-1 says, "Oh good! That's why I made it, Mike!" Greg-1 says, "Golly,
talk about Yesterday's Glories! That thing is 7 years old!" MikeD-2 says,
"I suppose you watch AbFab and Monty Python and Blackadder and all those
too" Greg-1 says, "I've seen Monty Python; don't recognize the other
titles. But I do enjoy unrepentent silliness. :)" MikeD-2 [to be]: honest
Greg, most of your work on ASI is more than 4 years old MikeD-2 says, "To
be honest Greg, most of your work on ASI is more than 4 years old" Greg-1
says, "Yup."
SJ says, "Blackadder is definitely unrepentantly silly. For my money it's
also over-noisy and over-broad. But definitely silly!" Greg-1 says, "Worse
than Monty Python?" MikeD-2 says, "No"
MikeD-2 says, "I can watch Blackadder, Monty Python bores me" Greg-1 says,
"I've enjoyed some Monty Python adventures, but yeah, most of 'em don't
hold my attention." MikeD-2 says, "But then I was watching Monty Python in
1974 or something" Greg-1 says, "Often their jokes will strike me as funny
weeks later. Such as the tennis match against the blanc mange." MikeD-2
says, "back when it was a weekly TV show on BBC2" Greg-1 says, "Maybe it
benefits from being compressed into a few seconds of memory rather than
being endured as a 1/2-hour show." MikeD-2 says, "those were the days when
David Attenborough (sp?) was DG of BBC2" Greg-1 says, "DG?"
MikeD-2 says, "Director general"
Greg-1 says, "OIC"
MikeD-2 says, "Attenborough of the nature films fame, not the one who
directed Gandi" Greg-1 says, "I was unaware that there were two David
Attenboroughs in the business." Greg-1 says, "I do remember a David
Attenborough who narrated a lot of films." MikeD-2 says, "sorry, those
would be David and Richard, not two Davids" Greg-1 says, "OIC."
MikeD-2 says, "****er"
MikeD-2 says, "this OIC biz is *so* john-r" MikeD-2 says, "he only does it
when he wants to annoy me" Greg-1 says, "Oops."
Greg-1 says, "Sorry; it's programmed into my fingers." Greg-1 says, "Ahem:
'Oh! I see!'"
Greg-1 says, "Better?"
MikeD-2 says, "nothing's ever better"
Greg-1 says, "I'm fading out here, so I'd better call it a night." MikeD-2
says, "always worse"
Greg-1 says, "LOL! Now *that* sounds like a Douglas Adams character!"
MikeD-2 says, "you're fading, what about me, it's 10 to freaking 6" Greg-1
says, "Specifically, Marvin the Maniacally Depressed Robot." Greg-1 says,
"And on that thrilling note: It's a night." Greg-1 says, "G'night guys!"
MikeD-2 says, "night"
Greg-1 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Greg-1. MikeD-2 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove MikeD-2. dcarson says, "looks like the
meetings over" SJ grins.
SJ decamps. Later, all.
SJ has disconnected.

-- End log: Thursday, October 7, 2004 12:56:38 am ASI Meeting Server time--