-- Start log: Wednesday, December 1, 2004 9:12:22 pm ASI Meeting Server time --

Michael says, "hi john.... haven't seen you in a while... how's life?"
john-r says, "Gary is in the wrong room" john-r says, "Michael any idea
when rocketf twiki will be back up?" dcarson says, "just told Gary how to
get here" Michael says, "this weekend maybe? a bug in the twiki code was
what the hackers used to get in so I'm be extra careful..." john-r says,
"TY Dana"
john-r says, "that explains why i got an e-mail from twik direct" Nancy-1
arrives.
john-r says, "Hi Nancy"
Nancy-1 says, "Hi John"
kokhmmm says, "Hi, Nancy"
Nancy-1 says, "Hi Peter."
Greg-1 arrives amidst thundering applause. john-r says, "Hi to the loud
Greg :)"
kokhmmm says, "I mailed Scotty a check someone new gave me. He probably
didn't get it yet. One of our new Advisors, Dave Dunlop" kokhmmm says, "Hi,
Greg"
Greg-1 says, "Oops. Sorry! I'll try to hold it down. :)" Michael says,
"hehe... I mailed Scotty the receipt for the google ads.... ;-)" Scottyg-1
says, "Nope, haven't received it yet. Everything that I've received has
been entered into the registration system." kokhmmm says, "It didn't go
into the mail until Monday afternoon" Scottyg-1 says, "Same for our check
to LRS." Michael says, "/me spent all day today getting offered a lot of
money from VeriSign to stay.... didn't work though....." kokhmmm says,
"Must be a good feeling to be appreciated, Michael" Michael says, "well, it
was actually quite annoying that they wait until *now* to make the offer
...." kokhmmm says, "Maybe they thought they could replace you easily and
found out that they couldn't" Michael says, "naw... I think its just
something big companies do: unless there's an immediate problem then
there's nothing to be done.... so until you leave they think that
everything is 100% perfect." SJ says, "A VERY LARGE red light on the
recorder flashes to indicate that it is recording random chat instead of a
Moon Society directors meeting :-) We gonna start soon?" Michael says, "its
almost 9:30 so I suspect this is all that's going to show up...." kokhmmm
says, "Okay, let's start. Membership report?" garygray has arrived.
kokhmmm says, "Mebership Processing is first." kokhmmm says, "Hi, Gary"
john-r says, "Hi Gary"
Nancy-1 says, "Missy said there was, 1 renew and 1 new this time." garygray
says, "hi everyone!"
Michael says, "I think I was the renewal" kokhmmm says, "Good. WSD says the
total membership held the same as last month at 176 and that MMM harcopies
were up by 1" kokhmmm says, "Paper Renewal Notices, I have offered to steal
this item from Greg, but haven't started yet." kokhmmm says, "Scotty, if I
send out paper renewal addresses, I'll use the Plano PO Box for return
address so as not to confuese anyone." Scottyg-1 says, "Thats fine Peter.
All the mail-in memberships go there." kokhmmm says, "Additional
Registration Options is next. " Scottyg-1 says, "I enter whatever comes in
into the online system and then Missy handles it from there." Greg-1 says,
"Do we have a proposal on the table for that?" kokhmmm says, "We had some
discussion about this, and the gist of it seemed to be that we should keep
the options as are." kokhmmm says, "I had proposed a lesser first year rate
for chapters to recruit new people but no one thought that necessary. (If
you worked in the trenches as much as I have you'd think different) So
we'll drop the idea." kokhmmm says, "But we also talked about the Extra
Donation line on the registration form." Scottyg-1 says, "Re that
discussion - I recall that the overriding thing was finding time for
someone to modify the software to handle more options." Scottyg-1 says,
"And that Randall was working on additions to Team Director that might pull
the whole thing into one system." kokhmmm says, "1) most organizations have
a donate button all over the place, on practically every page. The idea is
not to wait until renewal time, and also to catch visitors some of whom may
want to give but not join." SJ never got an answer to the question "Why are
we recruiting members?" Is it mainly to get their money? garygray says, "I
think requesting additional donations would be nice and financially
benefical to our Society!" kokhmmm says, "Scotty, we can leave it tabled
then until the software is created, then revisit the idea. We don't need to
make it harder for anyone." dcarson says, "we'd like to get them as
volunteerrs doing projects, but 90% all you get is the money" kokhmmm says,
"No Steve, maybe that's what it has been, but we need to tell people we
want them to join because we want them to help then give them a long menu
of ways that they can help, something for everyone." dcarson says, "but
that still helps fund the rest" SJ says, "What's on that menu?"
kokhmmm says, "If all we do is take their money, they end up leaving. " SJ
says, "Seriously. I've been coming to directors meetings for a few months
now. I have gained nothing of value and I feel I have given no value. And
if I feel that way as a director, what's a member going to feel like?" SJ
says, "The only message I have for a potential member now is "Hey, $25
isn't much, we might accidentally do good with it and our hearts are in the
right place."" SJ says, "And you know, some people will give money for that
reason." kokhmmm says, "Steve, we've been working on projects and a lot of
things. What would make you feel differently." SJ shrugs. I'll keep
donating myself at that level. But I joined to help, and every couple of
weeks I show up here for a session of slow, disorganized administrative
rattle. garygray says, "Steve, I think we are trying to do more projects
like the MDRS moon missions, the homesteading proct, etc.!" kokhmmm says,
"If you look on the Space Frontier Foundation page, when you click on join
or donate you get a list of 2 or 3 dozen line items to specify where your
money will go." SJ says, "Peter, no, not much is going on outside of
administrivia, rattling about memberships which come in at the rate of one
a month, and the MDRS. The MDRS is interesting but how can I help, as a
director or as a member?" kokhmmm says, "Planetary Society does the same.
This is very effective. No one wants to give for "general purposes" or
"operational expenses."" garygray says, "I think Steve does have a point in
the lack of a menu of things Board people can do.!" kokhmmm says, "I've
asked for assistance in brainstorming, getting some now from new directors.
I've sent out a call for volunteers, got two from outside." SJ . o O ( How
many of us would donate another $10 a month in order to never hear the word
"membership" at a director meeting? That would replace the current income
from memberships and free up, if the level of discussion is any indicator,
many hours of officer time. ) garygray says, "Also, we as individuals need
to pick some activity we are interested in!" SJ says, "Gary, Peter, yes,
menus are good, if you have something to put on them!" Greg-1 says, "Steve,
what were you thinking of about "membership"?" kokhmmm says, "I was under
the impression that I shoulde not find more things for Board members to do,
that they were already overburdened. So I haven't looked for help in the
Council, although I have gotten some, which I appreciate." Greg-1 says,
"(I'm trying to catch up on the profound thoughts with the rest of it. Now
I'm going all the way back to wondering why the Moon Society exists.)" SJ
says, "Greg, yes, that's the question. What are we actually here for?"
Greg-1 says, "Peter, it would help if there were things going on that board
members could do during this meeting." kokhmmm says, "Steve, we have a page
for volunteers, and we'll be beefing that up. I would like to add specific
needs, not just general ones." Greg-1 says, "As the board we're supposed to
be setting policy and direction for the Moon Society." SJ says, "When I
first asked why we needed members, the Next Question would have been "And
what are the goals that this serves?" But nobody ever answered the question
of why we were so concerned about membership." kokhmmm says, "Greg, that's
my fault for not fixing the broken agenda." garygray says, "Greg, in my
opinion to promote and advocation the development and serttlement of the
Moon!" Scottyg-1 says, "Steve, I've been an officer and/or director since
2000 when the Moon Society was formed." garygray says, "The real issue is
how do we do that!" SJ nods to Gary. And what, if anything, are we doing to
promote the development and settlement of the Moon? I've heard far more
chat about getting members than I have about the supposed goal of the
Society. Scottyg-1 says, "Initially, spending time on administrative stuff
was necessary - we had to create the infrastructure to function." Greg-1
says, "Gary, yes, that's a really good start: To advance the development
and settlement of the moon." Scottyg-1 says, "But for the last two years I
agree with you." SJ says, "If somebody articulated a plan to achieve the
goal and then said "But we need more members to do that!" . . . a
membership drive would make sense." Greg-1 says, "I think I added something
about scientific study when I wrote the blurb for the web site, too."
Michael says, "members come with the society is doing something people find
interesting and effective, not the other way around." kokhmmm says, "I
personally am concerned about membership because of a practical matter. MMM
cannot survive much longer unless the numbers go back up." SJ says, "So why
do we need MMM? I know you love it, but the organization was not formed to
support your newsletter." kokhmmm says, "But if we are going to do exciting
things, we need a bigger membership base (= more people willing to pitch
in)" Michael says, "IMHO, the best thing that's been done to drive new
membership is the mars desert research station stuff." SJ says, "The
newsletter should serve the organizational goals, not vice cersa." kokhmmm
says, "It's the Society'"
garygray says, "More members more more activities and more movement
(hopefully)!" kokhmmm says, "It's the Society's newsletter as far as I am
concerned." kokhmmm says, "It's how we connect with our members." Michael
says, "members rarely bring activities with them...." Greg-1 says, "That's
true, Michael."
Michael says, "I think there is still some confusion about the relationship
between Artemis and the Moon Society with respect to the "develop and
settle the moon" goal...." garygray says, "Yes, a lot a people join groups
because of the group's existing programs!" Greg-1 says, "The fundamental
question is still open: What is the best thing we can do to advance the
development and settlement of the moon?" SJ says, "You write a great deal
of the newsletter, Peter. It's almost a one-man show. Most of it is
speculative fanzine stuff. Some of it is damned neat and makes me think, a
few contributions (not your articles) are illiterate and makes me wince,
but no significant part of it is reporting exciting Society projects or
programs. Therefore there is no significant "connection to the members." In
my opinion." Greg-1 says, "Ten years ago I would have argued that a regular
publication would be a vital part of it, providing the primary
communication medium for the projects." Michael says, "large amounts of
that goal are actually more Artemis than they are Moon Society. Take the
CDSVN project for example, I'm getting a *lot* of interest in that from
some large state space economic development organizations who want to put
time and money into it. Its a project that's much larger than just the
Moon, but its definitely more about the business end of things that I think
most in the Moon Society would be comfortable with." SJ grins. Naturally I
make a grammatical error in the sentence that gripes about illiterate
articles. garygray says, "Greg, I think it's nor one thing but many things
we could consider doing!" MikeD arrives.
SJ says, "Michael, would you expand on the comment about confusion? In case
I am among the confused?" Michael says, "and being the chairman of Artemis
I *do* have a particular bias there... ;-)" john-r says, "Hi Mikw"
MikeD says, "Oops! Sorry I'm late, I forgot" john-r says, "Hi Mike"
MikeD says, "Hi John"
Greg-1 says, "(Steve, that was the demon Typo. He's a 3000-point character,
almost impossible to thwart, much less defeat.)" SJ says, "Greg, btw, MY
answer to that would be "try to find backing for an X-Prize equivalent for
a private lunar mission." But that's a BIG handful of a job." Michael says,
"SJ, the original reason for the Moon Society was to become the umbrella
organization for "all things moon". That included pure science, lunar
settlement, etc. Artemis was to be just one member organization inside that
big "lunar" tent." SJ nods . . .
Greg-1 says, "Micahel, yes, the CDSVN is neat, but I agree that it's not
the kind of thing I would expect to appeal to a membership organization."
Michael says, "so often when we talk about "development and settlement of
the moon" that is more of Artemis' specific goal than the larger much more
general "anything lunar" goal of the Moon Society." SJ says, "Okay, valid
point."
Greg-1 says, "Michael, true."
SJ says, "Maybe we should be selling craters :-)" Michael says, "Greg,
yep... CDSVN is probably somethign that is definitly *not* generally
accessible by the membership unless they're directly participating....
hence the reason why I think its still an Artemis Project project...."
MikeD says, "uhoh"
dcarson says, "(looking for moon related sites that are geocities etc and
offering free hosting under moon society might be an idea)" SJ blinks.
That's a good one!
Greg-1 says, "Just a bit of history: One of the primary reasons for forming
the Moon Society was to get the membership monkey off the back of the
Artemis Project." SJ says, "Heh."
Michael says, "yep.... rebuilding the lunar webring is another." Michael
nods... that too....
MikeD says, "Ubfortunately all the same people who do membership for Moon
Society are the same people who did it for ASI so nothing really changed"
Michael says, "but to also give a forum and organization to those who just
didn't find the hard core business oriented aspect of Artemis all that
interesting..." SJ says, "How successful has that been, in your opinion?"
Michael says, "qualify 'your', please. I lost the pronoun reference...."
kokhmmm says, "Not at all, IMHO"
SJ says, "Sorry, Michael. How successful has MS been in creating a forum or
org for those not interested in Artemis?" Greg-1 says, "Oh darn, speaking
of selling craters: I should officially tell the board that we received yet
another inquiry from one of the folks who are part of that space property
pyramid, wanting us to officially endouse their lunar deeds. I officially
round-filed the letter." SJ grins.
MikeD says, "round-filed?"
MikeD says, "oh, ok"
SJ doesn't think anybody can sell a crater unless they made it themselves.
Wonder how much of a slug it would take to create something scope-visible
from Earth? Greg-1 says, "I'm trying to remember which group it is, but my
mind is blank. (The flu might be influencing my mental celerity here.)"
Greg-1 says, "Mike, I threw the letter away; did not reply." kokhmmm says,
"The Lunar Republic"
Michael says, "SJ, imho, it has created a forum but I think the
infrastructure, etc demands on the core "energy providers" has been an
issue.... The Moon Society has some good ideas but its core people have
been burned out. I think what Peter is doing is spot on for the
Soceity...." MikeD says, "could we gain credibility by passing that kind of
crap to the fraud squad?" dcarson says, "yep, getting new people has
helped" Greg-1 says, "Peter, yes, I think it was the Lunar Republic. Is
that Dennis Hope's outfit?" SJ says, "Michael, Peter is doing a LOT. Which
initiative did you mean?" Michael says, "IMHO the best visibility and
leverage we've received lately has been when we've worked with others on
some larger goal." Michael says, "SJ, all of it really....." kokhmmm says,
"Wasn't it the guy you booted off the list?" Greg-1 says, "I don't think
Dennis Hope ever got booted from one of our lists." kokhmmm says, "No, more
recently. He was hounding you about the Sims" Michael says, "oh, btw, the
Return To The Moon effort next year is under new and *much* better
management (Jeff Feige to be exact). Given what he and i have been talking
about in terms of next years scope and agenda I think that would be a great
place for us to leverage our brand into something much bigger without to
much effort." kokhmmm says, "If I look through the membership roster, I'll
recognize his name, another Jackson (no offence to Steve!) I believe."
dcarson says, "any one whos coming for ISDC and would be willing to give
their talk again at Balticon the next weekend let me know" Michael says,
"one development is that Jeff is taking a cue from the Space Access
conference and making the thing *much* cheaper and more productivity
focused than "how pretty of a hotel can we get" focused." kokhmmm says,
"Michael, I'd really like us to have a role at RTM but it's so pricey."
dcarson says, "hooray for RTTM"
MikeD says, "Charles in in the commons, can't get in, should I add him to
the team or something?" kokhmmm says, "I've been asked repeatedly by
Tumlinson to attend." Michael says, "peter, that "priceyness" is changing
fairly radically...." john-r says, "Add hime to the team Mike" kokhmmm
says, "Charles is on the team. I added him myself." john-r says, "opps he
is already on it" SJ says, "Is RTTM an example of "everything lunar" that
should be under the MS umbrella?" john-r says, "RTTM is abother group"
MikeD says, "hmm, he's already a member of the team" kokhmmm says, "Steve,
SFF sort of owns it, we cosponsored last year" john-r says, "Space
frountier"
Michael says, "yes, but it has a focus to it that suggests that Artemis'
business focus would be very well represented. I'll probably be running the
business track." SJ . o O ( Michael anticipated my question. This is
efficient. ) kokhmmm says, "But Michael was the only one who went (did you
go Gary?)" kokhmmm says, "We should do more than cosponsor. We should
contribute to the program. " Michael says, "I met Gary there...."
garygray says, "Yes!"
kokhmmm says, "But right now, we are having enough on our hands trying to
do something at ISDC" Greg-1 says, "Steve, there is a long, complex history
to the Return To The Moon conference. We attempted to work with the Space
Frontier Foundation on it in the past but the results were not good. The
Space Frontier Foundation still owes us membership money from that first
conference." Michael says, "peter, I'm working with Jeff on doing just
that. Its fairly informal right now. One of the changes I hope to make is
to have actual working sessions. It just seems a shame to get that many
smart people in one place and just talk at them. I want to hear what they
have to say and get some actual work product out of them." Greg-1 says, "My
advice is that the Moon Society not allow itself to be suckered by the same
people twice." Michael says, "Greg, apparently they're still in the hole on
the previous ones. Jeff's condition for running RTTM was that the 'slate be
wiped clean' and RTTM started over from scratch. So far only the name is
surviving...." kokhmmm says, "Michael, you're my kind of guy. Working
sessions! Yes!" Michael says, "Greg, not the same people.... those people
aren't there anymore... (rick rarely runs any of this stuff personally)"
Greg-1 says, "I'm happy to provide whatever publicity and moral support we
can for the Foundation, but I will adamantly oppose anything that involves
doing business with them." Michael says, "well, you know my opinion on that
issue...." Michael says, "doh! the wife just got home! bbiab...." kokhmmm
says, "By the way, on the subject ofliaisons, it would be nice if we had
someone paired up with each group. I'll speak for the Mars Society and
American Lunar Society. " kokhmmm says, "That leaves SFF, Planetary
Society. NSS, SES, more?" SJ says, "What would you expect the liaison to
do, exactly?" Greg-1 says, "Erm... what's Gerry O'Neill's old group?"
Greg-1 says, "Darn I wish my brain would stop grinding its gears tonight.
:(" garygray says, "Peter, have you heard anything about the Spac Studies
Institute?!" kokhmmm says, "Michael with SFF, so that leaves TPS, SEDS,
NSS(maybe Arthur)" Greg-1 says, "That's it... Space Studies Institute."
kokhmmm says, "The liaison would keep up with whatever that group is doing
which is in line with our interests and see if there is a way in which we
can collaborate on those items." Greg-1 says, "FYI, all of the money that
was "lost" on the first RTTM conference ended up at SSI." kokhmmm says,
"And report back"
SJ says, "Keep up by . . . reading their website and publications, bugging
their President's phone, or something in between?" kokhmmm says, "Gary, I
used to belong to SSI when Gregg Maryniak was there. I think it got lost
since then" SJ says, "Liaison implies two-way communication, too. Would
liaison also tell THEM when WE had something they should collaborate with?"
Greg-1 says, "Yeah, at least in the year 1999 or 2000, SSI existed solely
to support one gal full time and a few other guys part time." kokhmmm says,
"Steve, websites and puplications. The liaison should be a joint member, us
and them. " kokhmmm says, "I belong to Planetary Society, and I have
suggestions, but if someone else could take the lead, that would be great."
SJ says, "And they have to be willing to give the liaison some ear time."
Greg-1 says, "Steve, I think Peter was thinking more along the lines of
"spy" than "liaison". :)" kokhmmm says, "Steve, if the liaison identified
places for collaboration, we would discuss weather or not to make a
proposal to the other organization." garygray says, "Charles is in Commons
trying to get in, Can someone goi to the Commons to help him out!" kokhmmm
says, "Spy?"
MikeD says, "we've been trying Gary"
Greg-1 says, "Sorry, Peter. Perhaps "ambassador" would have been a better
word. :)" SJ says, "Either way, that implies somebody who gets ear time
from the other organization." MikeD says, "cultural atache"
garygray says, "Okay, me too, Not very helpful!" SJ . o O ( SPY is such a
nasty word. INTEL AGENT. ) Greg-1 laughs.
kokhmmm says, "I'm not suggesting that our point person make approaches,
only that he/she keep up with what other group is doing and suggest any
areas that might be appropriate for us to join in. " john-r says, "Gary
dana mike and i are trying to get charles in here" dcarson says, "soeone
who reads the pubs and knows woh to coantact and mentions when a project
looks interesting would be useful" kokhmmm says, "Conversely, knowing what
the other organizations buttons are, we can see if there is something we
want to do that should interest them." SJ does not in the least oppose the
liaison idea. But like any other job it needs a job desc, and as we see,
the bare word LIAISON means different things to different people. Greg-1
says, "Speaking of working with other groups, where do we stand on
integrating the Moon Society with the National Space Society?" Greg-1 says,
"You'll recall that I wrote a proposal, and I think we're waiting to hear
back from NSS on their thoughts about it." john-r says, "NSS was in turmoil
and we are on hold" kokhmmm says, "I'll write it up and email it to the
list. Nut if I am going to give a lot of concrete examples, I might as well
just do it myself." kokhmmm says, "Anyone have any history with SEDS?" SJ
says, "Peter, your job is to lead and coordinate, not do it all yourself.
Even though sometimes it seems easier to do it all yourself. But if you get
hit by a truck, the things you explained to others will survive you and go
to the Moon." kokhmmm says, "Got your point Steve, and of course you are
right. " kokhmmm says, "Let's move on. Did anyone read my letter about
"Sparkplugs?"" dcarson says, "I'll write what I think it is and post it to
the list and we can iscuss it if needed" MikeD says, "haven't had a chance
to read that yet Peter" Greg-1 says, "Darn. Maybe we should just stage a
coups within the NSS and solve their tumultuous organizational problems.
:)" kokhmmm says, "The idea is all about giving status and access to
resources to those who want to do things on their own." dcarson says,
"skimmed it Peter, seems like the rigth direction" kokhmmm says, "Greg, I
think the best thing we could do is help them go bankrupt faster. It would
be more merciful." Greg-1 says, "Peter, yeah, that was sort of what I had
envisioned for Project Leto." Greg-1 says, "The fundamental concept was to
establish a tourist trap that supports an open research center." kokhmmm
says, "Back to Sparkpluggs. IO defined 4 general roles. And we have several
members who fit some of those descriptions: Chip, Marianne, Ken Murphy,
probably more." Greg-1 says, "Erm... specifically, the "sparkplugs" concept
was the same sort of concept for the Leto research facility; not the
driving NSS bankrupt idea. :)" kokhmmm says, "All I want to do is put up a
Sparkplugs page up with links from chapters page and volunteers page, and
help individuals find the resources that will help them on the Space
Chapter Hub and elsewhere." kokhmmm says, "A lot of members chose not
"toget involved" SJ read it. How would you go about helping these people
find needed resources? kokhmmm says, "because "to get involved" seems to
mean a team effort, and that's not necessarily so" SJ says, "Yes, it
depends on the resources :-) But in general." kokhmmm says, "Steve, I would
put links to resources on that page, not much more." SJ says, "That's less
personal than sending them the info in e-mail, and no more useful." dcarson
says, "we have the viewgraphs that we use for talks, they need to be
updated and a script written to go with them" kokhmmm says, "But that's
quite a bit. And we'll add to those resources over time." SJ says, "I
thought you might mean intervening, as it were, to find personal help for
these special individuals." SJ says, "If SPARKPLUG is to be more than an
empty pat on the head, you want to find some way to *personally and
specifically* help them with what they need, no?" SJ is all up for resource
pages as long as they're kept updated, but that's more work for somebody -
so a volunteer is needed. Not you, Peter :-) kokhmmm says, "THt's a good
point. When you write for information it goes into a WSD cubbyhole and no
one takes care of it promptly. I want mail to volunteers@moonsociety.org to
go to Gqary (he volunteered) and email to sparkplugs@moonsocieey.org to go
to me." dcarson says, "cfrjlr: Basically, I am wondering if Moon Society is
interested in submitting commit to NASA Centennial Office" MikeD says, "I
can organize that relatively quickly Peter" kokhmmm says, "Can someone here
set that up? The email destiations." kokhmmm says, "Thanks, Mike. We will
field their email, Steve." SJ says, "Rah."
SJ says, "I would suggest that if any Sparkplug has special and interesting
needs, one thing to do would be to present them to this group, and maybe to
the Advisors." SJ . o O ( For one thing, that might give some of us a
chance to be useful. ) kokhmmm says, "Dana, Charles is working hard on
that." Greg-1 says, "Peter, rather than have the correspondence go directly
to your mail, could you use Team Director? That way the contact doesn't get
lost and we don't have a single-point failure." kokhmmm says, "Steve, I
would certainly bring those special requests to wherever the expertise is.
That's one of my maddness methods behind the selection of Advisors." Greg-1
says, "I'm thinking that if you short-circuit Team Director we lose the
benefit of having the system." MikeD says, "not sure yet about
volunteers@moonsociety.org that might already be in use" Greg-1 says, "You
can subscribe to a Team Director mailbox so that any traffic to the mailbox
will be sent to you via email." kokhmmm says, "Yes, it is Mike. But it
doesn't go to a real person." kokhmmm says, "Okay, Greg, tell me how to do
that and pretend I'm dense." MikeD says, "yes, it goes to helpdir"
Greg-1 says, "That's my real point, Peter. If you want to see mail sent to
volunteer@moonsociety.org, it's just a matter of setting it up in ... erm..
Help Director. (Thanks for the correction, Mike.)" kokhmmm says, "Okay,
geat, Greg! Thanks." kokhmmm says, "Next, unless anyone has more on this.
Chaptes." MikeD says, "It should be possible to pass
sparkplugs@moonsocieey.org thru helpdir to Gary also" kokhmmm says, "WEe've
updated the US Chapters list. I am concerned about the International
chapters." kokhmmm says, "No, Mike, I'll handle the sparkplugs - divide &*
conquer" MikeD says, "The India chapter is up and running, but the guy wont
know for several hours unless he's a nightowl" Greg-1 says, "Peter, you go
to http://www.moonsociety.org/cgi-bin/helpdir/helpdir and click on the link
to User Administration. Then find Kokh, Peter and edit user info. Click the
box next to Volunteering." Greg-1 says, "... under Mailbox Subscriptions.
Which I just now did. :)" kokhmmm says, "I emailed all the international
contacts and got no reply." kokhmmm says, "Thanks, Greg."
Greg-1 says, "So, unless I messed up, you should now be receving a copy of
all mail sent to that box." MikeD says, "I thought you heard from Dale and
Niklas?" Greg-1 says, "Peter, you have access to all mailboxes except for
"Member Email Bounces"" dcarson has disconnected.
kokhmmm says, "Greg, volunteer should go to Gary, Sparkplug to me" MikeD
says, "sparkplug alias has to be setup first" dcarson has connected.
Greg-1 says, "Right."
Greg-1 says, "I'll leave that to you, Mike." dcarson has reconnected.
john-r says, "one warning on help dir - when the mail ends in in spam -
from the filters - then is moved to the correct box - i do not think the
notifications are correct" dcarson says, "back"
Greg-1 says, "Oh my! John, that sounds like a bug. Does Randall know about
it?" john-r says, "not yet - "
john-r says, "at least from me any way" kokhmmm says, "On International
chapters, we're okay with Ireland and UK and Sweden, btu the others seem
dead. I'll investigate further." john-r says, "its not that hard for those
interested to just ck the help dir every so often" john-r says, "any of us
leaders can go there any time" kokhmmm says, "John, if I have to remember
to do it, I won't do it. It has to come to me and hit me in the face."
Greg-1 says, "Hmmm... we need to create a Help Director account for Gary
Gray. Can someone do that? I would but I'm worried that my brain won't
cooperate." dcarson says, "should still be fixed, if you asked for email
notices it should give them when something is added however it get there"
dcarson says, "will do Greg"
john-r Smiling at Peter on hit in the face MikeD says, "Peter, check your
email, I just sent a test message to sparkplugs@moonsociety.org" Greg-1
says, "Mike, did you set up a Help Director mailbox for it?" MikeD says,
"No Greg, I don't know how to do HelpDir mailboxes yet" MikeD says, "it's
just pointing to Peter for now" kokhmmm says, "Don't see it yet, Mike."
MikeD says, "I can see how helpdir maiboxes are setup in aliases and
virtusers, but don't know anything beyond that" MikeD hmms.
MikeD says, "maybe if I spelt moonsociety corrctly it might get to you
Peter" dcarson says, "that does help"
MikeD says, "ok, check it again Peter"
john-r says, "well foks, its a very good discussion , but i have to sleep,
Dana or Mike can you e-mail the ranscript to the list?" MikeD says, "John,
you know you can have the MOO send that to you directly don't you" kokhmmm
says, "Not yet. Will the sender be you? Will their be a help director
number?" MikeD says, "no, sender will be me"
MikeD says, "ok, I've obviously forgotten to do something" john-r says,
"Nite all"
garygray says, "Peter. What else is on the agenda?!" john-r has
disconnected.
MikeD says, "aha, I misspelled moonsociety in virtusers too" kokhmmm says,
"I have another dozen or more people I want to invite as advisors" MikeD
says, "ok, that should have gone through now" kokhmmm says, "Should I be
quoting the bylaws at them?" MikeD says, "dunno, it can't do any harm to
show them the bylaws, but overdoing it might scare them away" kokhmmm says,
"I personally think those rules are unnecessary. If they don't repsond to
our requests for advice, we just stop asking them. If they don't want to
advise any more, they just stop advising. Who needs term limits?" kokhmmm
says, "Got the Test Message, Mike" MikeD says, "ok, sorry it took me so
long, but Engrish is my turd langwitch" SJ says, "I'm not comfortable with
a situation where actions are taken and then we hear "Oh, by the way, this
is against the bylaws, but I don't like that bylaw."" kokhmmm says, "Some
of those accepting so far are very enthused." The housekeeper arrives to
cart john-r off to bed. kokhmmm says, "What are the first two Mike?" MikeD
says, "navy yard and gutter talk" kokhmmm says, "Just remembered another
thought I'd like everyone to consider, no urgency." MikeD says, "I'm afraid
I'm essentially monolingual Peter" kokhmmm says, "I had a free trial
subscription to a linkchecking service. They found (and I corrected) over
200 internal and external bad links on the LRS site. " MikeD says, "Charles
was playing with some software that does that the other day" kokhmmm says,
"A year subscription is expensive, about $300, but I'd like to suggest that
it would be worth it to clean up tons of bad links on asi.org" MikeD says,
"But people need to be aware that a lot of our pages use templates and
shouldn't be edited directly" dcarson says, "we can use free software to do
that, we just need to get someone to clean up what the report comes up
with" kokhmmm says, "Most of the rews.html (related external websites) are
50% dead links." MikeD says, "I cleared up 899 links yesterday" kokhmmm
says, "Good show, Mike!"
MikeD says, "with one change"
kokhmmm says, "I found that out by looking through the ADB for stuff to add
to the Moon Information page." MikeD says, "it was Charled who pointed it
out" MikeD says, "the rews page is a mess"
kokhmmm says, "Yup, I told Charles about it. He had sent me one of those
pages for review." kokhmmm says, "But there are rews pages all over the
place in the ADB" kokhmmm says, "Anyway, I'm glad someone is on it!" MikeD
says, "when did you check the rews page?" kokhmmm says, "Nothing gives the
impression of stagnancy so much as a lot of dead links." kokhmmm says,
"Charles sent me one where he had added a paper at the top. I looked at it
and found all the dead links." MikeD says, "do you recall the url for the
rews page?" kokhmmm says, "The point is, that every topic and subtopic in
the ADB seems to have its own rews.html page" dcarson says, "want me to
find a good free package to use for link reports?" kokhmmm says, "No, Mike.
You'll have to ask Charles." Scottyg-1 says, "I agree with the comment
Steve made about following the bylaws." Scottyg-1 says, "If we don't like
what they say, lets change them." Scottyg-1 says, "But until that is done,
the officers and directors a required by law to follow them." MikeD says,
"Charles got one from http://www.hisoftware.com/" garygray says, "Advisors
will give advice when interested in giving it, we ask for advice from
Advisors when we want it. The bylaws do exist but lets nir push the bylaws
into the Advisors' face!" MikeD says, "and another from
http://www.relsoftware.com/" kokhmmm says, "Understand, Scotty. My question
was do I have to mention these limits in the invitations I send out, or let
them find it out for themselves as they explore the website." dcarson says,
"put a url to the bylaws in the invite as well as the mission page etc"
MikeD says, "I would by all means tell them how to find the bylaws and
recommend reading them" kokhmmm says, "okay"
MikeD says, "but I wouldn't endlessly quote them at them unless they are in
or likely to be in breach of them" MikeD says, "We should all probably have
printed copies of them on the walls in front of us for reference however"
kokhmmm says, "okay"
MikeD says, "everytime someone mentions them I squirm, I don't even know
how many there are" kokhmmm says, "We've covered enough. It's getting late.
Thanks everyone. I'll try to put up a new agenda for next time." SJ says,
"I don't think anybody has proposed endlessly quoting anything. " MikeD
says, "neither do I Steve, but I'm just making the point that there's a
happy medium" MikeD says, "it may very well be that the first thing some of
the advisors advise is that we change some of the bylaws" kokhmmm says,
"The way I treat bylaws (for any organization) is that they are there as a
guide if and when you get in a jam, but otherwise I don't pay much
attention. If things are working, they are working, whether they are by the
book or not. It's just a pragmatic attitude, heretical or not." SJ cannot
function in a situation where the leadership ignores the bylaws. Not to be
confrontational or anything; you're the President and if that's the way you
feel I can bow out quietly. But if we have a leader who ignores the written
structure of the group, it's too much like a mob for me to be a useful part
of it. Scottyg-1 says, "Peter, thats fine until someone gets a burr up his
butt and decides to make trouble." MikeD says, "something that happens all
too frequently" Scottyg-1 says, "However, I agree that there's no need to
rub people's noses in it." SJ says, "What was the point of spending years
developing infrastructure if it's going to be managed by the seat of the
pants?" kokhmmm says, "Yup, but my attitude goes along with the old saying
that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. ;) Anyway, I'm going
to quit for tonight. Went to a funeral this afternoon and did too much
"celebrating" the life of the departed." Scottyg-1 says, "And for any that
are interested, the bylaws are publicly accessible at
http://www.moonsociety.org/organizing-documents." kokhmmm says, "Steve, we
didn't spend years writing the bylaws. We wrote what we thought would work.
It's okay to revisit them now and then and bring them in line with
practice." dcarson says, "sure, then lets do that and revise them" SJ says,
"But it's not OK for you to say that you'll ignore the ones you disagree
with." Scottyg-1 says, "I agree with Steve. When you accept the office you
agree to follow the bylaws and Articles of Incorporation." kokhmmm says, "I
didn't quite say that, Steve. I just said I didn't like the rule, and that
I didn't quote it to the Advisors. " MikeD says, "it's obvious from the
amount of time we spend discussing the bylaws and consulting them that they
are not intuitive, maybe they need revision. Perhaps that should be on the
agenda for a near-future meeting" MikeD says, "which rule was this Peter?"
kokhmmm says, "And the reason for not quoting it to the advisors was that
in a previous discussion, I got the idea (falsely, apparently) that it was
not applied." garygray says, "Bylaws are orperational standards that
generally meets the common sense guidrlines. But spending a lot of time
determining how to apply them is generally a waste of time.! " MikeD says,
"the 2 year term limit rule?" kokhmmm says, "I in no way at any time set
out to ignore a rule." SJ says, "And that you expected to have a battle
over it. I'm not battling. I'm just saying that you have my resignation if
this is the way you want to run the organization. I have no strong opinion
about term limits for advisors. I have a very strong opinion about bylaws,
articles of incorporations, and other legalities." kokhmmm says, "Yes,
Mike. To me it seems unnecessary and an insult." MikeD says, "That term
limit rule was introduced to allow people to actually get out of elected
positions now and then" MikeD says, "Perhaps it needs to be clarified, I
can't see a reason to apply it to advisors" Greg-1 says, "Oops. One day
they'll put a sign up in this room that says 'Gregory Bennett slept here.'
:)" Michael says, "uhoh... what did I just step back into...." kokhmmm
says, "Yes, but Mike, all one has to do is resign, or no longer give
advice. " MikeD says, "for an advisor that's easier than it is for an
elected rep" kokhmmm says, "The way out is not needed, and that you have to
be reelected every two years puts you on probation. " MikeD says, "the
problem was that people were feeling obliged to seek re-election because
nobody was willing to take their place" kokhmmm says, "I will do whatever
the Board asks, whether I like it or not. I want to make that clear. But
you can't make me like it." Michael says, "IMHO, two year terms for
officers is fine.... BofA is probably a differnt animal... BoD even a more
different one...." Greg-1 says, "Erm... do we have a term limit rule?"
Greg-1 says, "We discussed it but I don't remember that we adopted it."
kokhmmm says, "Mike, that may be for officers. We need officers and Board
members. There is no set number of Advisors specified. " MikeD says,
"Peter, the problem was that certain people wound up running for offices
they didn't want for too many years and got stuck in the job" Greg-1 says,
"I should add that I strongly agree with Steve on the subject of the
bylaws." kokhmmm says, "If there was a set size to the BoA, you rpoint
would make sense." MikeD says, "I don't see a reason to apply it to
advisors, but that may need to be clarified in the actual bylaw" SJ says,
"Bylaws: http://www.moonsociety.org/organizing-documents/bylaws.html"
kokhmmm says, "Greg, the point is not about me following them. I will. I
just don't like them." Michael says, "which ones specifically?" Michael
says, "term limits in general?" Michael says, "or just specific positions?"
Greg-1 says, "Where a heck is this term limit rule?" kokhmmm says, "Setting
a size limit to the BoA assumes that they will sit as an organized board
for discussions and decisons. The BoA is just a collection of individuals
acting as individuals, asked as individuals for advice. It's like saying to
someone "you are my best friend. But that's up fro review in two years.""
SJ is now READING the bylaws rather than going by Peter's mail. SJ says,
"There is a term limit for directors. I do not see one for advisors."
Greg-1 says, "There's a size limit on the Board of Advisors?" MikeD says,
"yes, Article VIII section 2 is quite clear, but it's not a term limit" SJ
says, "No, there it is."
garygray says, "Greg, I don't think there is a term limit, just 2 tear
terms!" kokhmmm says, "term limits, and the word elected. We invite
someone, they either accept or decline. Electing an advisor makes no sense
to me." SJ says, "Article VIII section 2."
MikeD says, "it does however impose a minimum term limit" SJ says, "No
limit on successive terms." Greg-1 says, "Hmmm... having the board approve
advisors would make sense. Electing them does not." kokhmmm says, "2-year
term, not number of terms is what concerns me." MikeD says, "yes, I think
that is a legitimate concern and should probaly be ammended" Michael says,
"IMHO, since the BofA has no power the members just serve at the pleasure
of hte BoD....." MikeD says, "and or themselves"
Greg-1 says, "I see it. Article VIII, Section 2: "Individuals shall be
appointed to the Board of Advisors by majority vote of the Board of
Directors, and shall serve for two year terms. There is no limitation on
successive terms."" kokhmmm says, "You got it, Mike"
Scottyg-1 says, "Right - there are no term limits, just terms." MikeD says,
"do we actually need terms for them?" Michael says, "in that case I'd just
leave it as is and have the Board vote once a year to just do whatever they
feel like...." Greg-1 says, "Pter, there is a reason for specifying a
two-year term. Think of the negative side of it. It gives you a graceful
way to drop a name from the board of advisors if you need to." kokhmmm
says, "Some of the people I invited, I dearly hope will serve us
indefinitely." Greg-1 says, "For sure."
dcarson says, "the idea is you can just not reinvite someone instead of
having to actually say they're fired" Michael says, "then the BoD just
keeps indefinitely voting them in...." Scottyg-1 says, "Thats Peter's
question. I'm somewhat ambivalent. I see merits in both approaches." Greg-1
says, "If a member of the board of advisors is not embarrassing to the Moon
Society, then surely that advisor will be re-elected." Greg-1 says, "It
also forces us to contact board members at least every two years to ask
them if they want to continue." MikeD says, "then perhaps the way of
wording it would be that the members of the BoA are subject to annual
shuffle/review" Michael says, "its 11:30 guys and I've been up since 4:00
a.m. Time for bed!" SJ notes, btw, that the Moon Society FAQ says that "ASI
will continue to exist as a special interest group within the Moon
Society," while the projects page says they are affiliated but separate
organizations. Greg-1 says, "That has strong merit because it's an impetus
for us to give the Board of Advisors something to advise about." Greg-1
says, "It's a strong advantage for the advisors because it also gives THEM
a graceful way out." kokhmmm says, "Practical point. I will send to the
list the names of those I would like to invite in the second round, along
with their areas of expertise. Do we wait until next meeting for Board to
approve this names? If that's what we should do, it's okay. Otherwise I'll
proceed." Greg-1 says, "Peter, the Board of Directors must appoint the
advisors." kokhmmm says, "Greg, I intend to be contacting each of the
advisors on a fairly regular basis on different matters. " MikeD says, "I
would hold on that Peter, not going to achieve much before the holidays
anyway" Greg-1 says, "My guess is that the holiday would not have a major
effect on recruting advisors." kokhmmm says, "Okay, I'll send the list.
Before I sent out the first round, I asked everyone and was told to
proceed. I don't remember a formal board vote, but maybe that should come
after the fact. Otherwise we risk emabarrassment should I have to disinvite
anyone." MikeD says, "do we have any provision for holding extraordinary
sessions over the holidays, that way we might be able to trash out some
stuff quicker that we normally can" MikeD says, "wont have a major effect
on recruiting, but it could have a major effect on availability of board
members" dcarson says, "we can hold a quick board meeting on the 15th to
approve them" dcarson says, "thats the next meeting"
Greg-1 says, "Dana, yes, that's a good plan." garygray says, "Perhaps the
Boad of Directors should consider mofying the Bylaws from elect Advisor to
approve Advisors with a two year mutual review!" MikeD says, "I'm sure
Randall will be off skiing quite a bit over the next few months" Scottyg-1
says, "They don't say "elect". they say "appoint"" kokhmmm says, "Dana, can
we approve both lists then? Pro forma for those already invited and
accepting and the list of new persons I've proposed we invite?" MikeD says,
"I think that would be better as a One Year Mutual Review" dcarson says,
"don't see why not"
kokhmmm says, "I'll be ready for that. Should the mail on this go to the
Board list or to the Leaders list?" MikeD says, "but it might be worth
putting a cap on the number of advisors on the board at any time, that can
also be used as an excuse for dropping someone" kokhmmm says, "Mike, I am
trying to invite a few people in each area of expertise. Putting on a cap
would be very Procrustean. " kokhmmm says, "I don't expect much more than
30 or so - it's not the total number I'm looking at but covering the
needs." MikeD says, "30 is a lot"
MikeD says, "how many are legal and or financial?" kokhmmm says, "Mike, 30
is a lot only if you think ofthem as meeting together. They are to be
advising individually or as in teams. Purely small group dynamics. " MikeD
says, "and are any of them multilingual?" kokhmmm says, "30 on a board of
directors is a lot. Advisors work entirely differently. " kokhmmm says,
"Different dynamics."
kokhmmm says, "We have Niklans Jarvstrat from Sweden." kokhmmm says, "I
don't have a handle on linguistic aptitudes of the others" garygray says,
"Let's have Peter present his new list of Advisor at the 12/17 meeting with
a report of membership being send on the leadership list! " dcarson says,
"12/15"
garygray says, "I'm hoping for a short meeting on the 15th!" MikeD says,
"wish ya luck"
kokhmmm says, "Let me give an example. I have 4 in the Media/Publication?PR
area, about the same number in the analog base area, want to invite 3 or 4
experts on human-robot synergies, etc. etc." garygray says, "my mistake it
is the 15thth!" kokhmmm says, "At least one is a good project manager, a
wide variety of talents and expertise. Getting to the Moon and staying
there is nothing one advisor or a small team can handle. Many vectors and
angles to cover." kokhmmm says, "We also need advisors on funding issues"
MikeD says, "very much so"
MikeD says, "and we need people who can do translations into the major
languages also" kokhmmm says, "Mike, let's add that to the volunteer page.
What languages do you want to prioritize?" garygray says, "Peter, I think
its great you finding these resource, Better than using a 'help; page!"
kokhmmm says, "I say we skip Arabic for now ;-)" MikeD says, "well,
Spanish, Russian, French, Chinese, Japanese, Hindu, Sanskrit, Portugese
(sp)" dcarson says, "major EU languages, also Japanese would be good, they
are interested in space" MikeD says, "Major EU languages are English,
French, German and Spanish. The first three being the official languages"
kokhmmm says, "Sanskrit is like Latin, a classic dead language. And in
India, everyone who goes to college knows English." kokhmmm says, "Okay we
will add that to the Volunteer Page along with another, Grant Proposal
Writer" MikeD says, "English is their second official language in India"
garygray says, "Yea, I think India has something like 150 languages!" MikeD
says, "Do they have one main written language like the Chinese?" kokhmmm
says, "Each state in India is as different as France, Italy, Poland etc."
garygray says, "Yes, English!"
kokhmmm says, "English is the only thing that binds them." MikeD says,
"English is certainly their administrative language" MikeD says, "ok, so we
don't need to worry about translations for the Indian market" kokhmmm says,
"Also the language of higher education, textbooks, etc. Both our new
members from India are quite fluent, but probably cannot understand each
other's native tongues." MikeD says, "heh, I can't understand my own native
tongue" kokhmmm says, "No, not for India or any other country once under
Brittain. Ditto for any country once ruled by France, Portugal, Spain. Same
situation when it comes to language of higher education" garygray says,
"Hey, guys I need to go to bed. Its late!" garygray says, "good night, a;;!"
dcarson says, "gnight"
MikeD says, "so we really only need to cover about 6 languages apart from
English then" garygray has disconnected.
kokhmmm says, "Good night Gary, and thanks everyone. Goodnight from me too.
Yes Mike, about 6 would do." kokhmmm has disconnected.
dcarson says, "that probably gets us 95% coverage" MikeD says, "as long as
we get decent translations and not pidgin" dcarson says, "I'd think we're
done for tonight" The housekeeper arrives to cart garygray off to bed.
MikeD says, "I think we were done for the night about an hour ago" The
housekeeper arrives to cart kokhmmm off to bed. Scottyg-1 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Scottyg-1.

-- End log: Thursday, December 2, 2004 12:11:49 am ASI Meeting Server time--