-- Start log: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:16:19 pm ASI Meeting Server time -- 
dcarson says, "started the recorder so we catch this" Lunadyne
says, "Welcome to the pre-Winter Solstice Leadership Meeting." Rose/Miros
says, "cur rent plan is to build elsewhere, export the whole thing and load
it up a t moonsociety.org on launch day" Lunadyne says, "Is any kind of
rationalization of the existing content anticipated at the new site?"
dcarson says, "yes a major reorginization" Lunadyne says, "I'd hate to just
export it wholesale and then have to go through a major clean-up at the new
site." Rose/Miros says, "export the NEW site" Lunadyne says, "It seems to
make more sense to cut-n-paste the most relevant and then fill ot."
Lunadyne says, "out." MikeD-1 arrives. Rose/Miros says, "actually,many
pages have too much stuff on them, we need to split pages too" Lunadyne
says, "Hi MikeD-1" MikeD-1 says, "hi" MikeD-1 says, "did everyone get
Access Bob's message about the posters?" Lunadyne says, "When was that?"
dcarson says, "many copies, I got all ther bounces" MikeD-1 says, "lol"
MikeD-1 says, "bob found a bunch of reference mission posters, he posted
the info on artemis-list" MikeD-1 says, "probably more around somewhere
too" pjbanyai says, "Peter is still having trouble connecting to the MOO!"
dcarson says, "which shows how long its been since the liat was active,
tons of bad addresses to remove" bnault says, "peter says he can't connect
to the MOO" MikeD-1 says, "the more things change, the more they stay the
same" Lunadyne says, "He did send a report. 176 members, flat month over
month." dcarson says, "well I have a huge pile in my storage unit, about a
3+ foot pile" Rose/Miros says, "if mike is listmaster, why's dana g et t
ing the bounces? or is d ana listmaster?" Strangelv-2 arrives. dcarson
says, "I'm postmaster" MikeD-1 says, "actually Rose, the problem is the
listmaster hasn't checked his email in a while" Rose/Miros says, "ahh"
Lunadyne says, "Some issues with mailed MMMS which he's dealing with, and
MMM India and To the Stars newsletters coming out in Jan. (MMM on hiatus)"
MikeD-1 says, "and dana gets all the bounces of the bounces of the spam et
al" Lunadyne says, "I honestly don't know how to help Peter." Lunadyne
says, "A lot of this stuff is foreign to me." Lunadyne says, "I've never
been comfortable with the backend structure of the website." Lunadyne says,
"I wish there was some way we could get the Team function working for us
instead of constraining us." Lunadyne says, "If it did would for us, I'd
have us come up with about 10 teams and tell all the members they have to
be on one." Strangelv-2 says, "The Lunarpedia list was set up using
MAjorDomo directly so that non-members could participate; does that count?"
Lunadyne says, "I'd rather they were members to be on a Moon Society Team."
pjbanyai says, "The spbd team currently has a strange problem with teamdir.
If you try to join the team you only join the mailing list at
spbd@moonsociety.org and not actually the team. Also this list is accepting
incoming mail from non-members. Gran Lindfors sent an email to this 12/11
about his "meteor" rock collection." Strangelv-2 attempts to get a
committee with 20 people who don't want to be on it to achieve quorum
dcarson says, "we can just setup majordomo lists directly, that is what
teamdir uses behind the scenes" Rose/Miros says, "how important are mailing
lists, other than to get people'sattention?" Lunadyne says, "Not a
committee, James, a Team, with a Leader." Strangelv-2 says, "They used to
be really important" Rose/Miros says, "could we move the brain storming to
comment threads on team pages? (on th enew site)" Lunadyne says, "I see
mailing lists as the adjunct of the Teams. Also for leadership
communications." MikeD-1 says, "trouble is these days they tend to generate
false positives in anti spam routines" Rose/Miros says, "definte adjunct in
this context?" Lunadyne says, "Oh I still get plenty of mail lists in the
inbox..." Lunadyne says, "It does seem appropriate that each Team would
have its own list for messaging to the members of that Team." Rose/Miros
says, "the problemwith "real work"getting done on the mailing list is
bringing new members up to speed, if it's ona webpage, they can read it"
Lunadyne says, "So you're saying like a WikiTeams page for each Team?"
Rose/Miros says, "sort of" Rose/Miros says, "i like the idea of messaging,
that way when someonemakes progress, they can tell the othermembers"
Rose/Miros says, "even if it's just for ego stroking" Lunadyne says, "I
think mail gets a bit more attention than having to continually visit a
page to see what's going on." Rose/Miros says, "that'swhy the mail just
tells themto check out the new or improved pages" dcarson says, "you can
subscribe to a wiki page and get email whenit is updated" Rose/Miros says,
"true, wonder if drupal has such a think" Rose/Miros says, "thing" Lunadyne
says, "We would have to set up the auto updates for the members for them."
pjbanyai says, "With Google Apps for Non-profits it is possible to have a
special form of Google groups which is team oriented. It combines a forum,
mailing list, and team membership list." Strangelv-2 remembers Mike working
on a list/forum system once upon a time Rose/Miros says, "i don't, so that
makes it pre-2001" Rose/Miros says, "anyhow, this is the kind of stuff
philip wants to know about" Rose/Miros says, "where what we've got doesn't
give us the support we want and need" MikeD-1 says, "yes, it worked but
it's an added security hole in the forum, and even in the list" Rose/Miros
says, "ok, so that's probably not a solution either?" pjbanyai says, "There
is a mail2forum extension for phpBB2 which links with majordomo."
Rose/Miros says, "that doesn't sound very web 2.0" MikeD-1 says, "that's
what I used, but it was iffy and that was back in ****" dcarson says,
"drupal has a Notifications module" MikeD-1 says, "back in 20**" dcarson
says, "http://drupal.org/project/notifications" MikeD-1 says, "even 200*"
Rose/Miros says, "back before people flew planes into buildings?" MikeD-1
says, "that might be adequate" Strangelv-2 believes after, but maybe not by
much MikeD-1 says, "no, after 9/11" Lunadyne says, "The one thing I always
hated about autonotify on wikis is that you'd get an e-mail for every tiny
comma change." Lunadyne says, "IIRC that happened with the NASA Academy
wiki." Strangelv-2 starts an edit reversion war over oxford comma usage
Rose/Miros says, "i'll have to look at notify" Rose/Miros slaps all
participants with a nast y email MikeD-1 will be right back. MikeD-1 has
disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove MikeD-1. Lunadyne says,
"While we're diverting, does anyone have any particular requests for
Facebook postings?" Lunadyne says, "Stuff they'd like to see more of."
Rose/Miros says, "so if it can be done, how about a "page X was modified
today" going out once a day?" Rose/Miros says, "or best, page X Y and Z
were modified today" Rose/Miros says, "so you'd only get one message
perteam that you're on" Rose/Miros says, "leth's th ink wishfully here"
Lunadyne says, "Yeah, but it would be preferable to limit it to substantive
changes, which I know computers can't yet understand." Rose/Miros says, "if
you're willing to burn cpu cycles you can" Strangelv-2 is attempting to
help Peter get into the MOO. We may be having technical difficulties with
Mootcan Strangelv-2 says, "Dana, what's the easiest way to get to a text
console in OSX and does OSX come with a form of TELNET?" dcarson says,
"mediawiki has a checkbox for This is a minor edit" dcarson says, "people
forget to check it but it is there" Rose/Miros says, "yeah, they forget,
that 's the problem" Strangelv-2 says, "Usually it's spambots that check
it" pjbanyai says, "Might be a good time for some info about planetary
alignments and why the Moon will not fall into the Earth in the next 2 days
:)" Rose/Miros says, "single character edits would be easy to find and
ignore" Lunadyne says, "I've been trying to avoid that whole topic."
Rose/Miros says, "i plan to wear my mystical mayan cloak and dance down the
street. someone come bail me out when i get arrested for public nudit y"
Strangelv-2's scooter doesn't have enough range to get to the Olean PD on a
single charge Lunadyne says, "I'm being forced to go to an event at UT
Arlington in return for some Moon education materials the Planetarium got.
Friggin' quid pro quo." dcarson says, "
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x-dhvGgLIR0/UM-vepMWXYI/AAAAAAAACZM/WddkOgpVZbQ/148618_532378150107546_1210705378_n.png"
Rose/Miros says, "http://soul2soultreasures.com/mayan_cloak/ not work or
kid safe" Lunadyne says, "Actually, speaking of Moon orbits that reminds
me..." Rose/Miros says, "can we build t he skyhook ou t of bean stalks like
in Hothouse?" Rose/Miros hides Lunadyne says, "Liftport has switch to
Lunavators." Lunadyne says, "I was just noting on our Facebook page that if
you go out and look at the first quarter Moon, that's where the Earth was
four hours prior." Rose/Miros says, "and the third quarter is where Earth
will be in 4 hours?" Lunadyne says, "Bingo!" Strangelv-2 says, "Dana, Peter
and i found the console but we're getting a confusing error. By any chance
could you call Peter at 414 342 0705?" dcarson says, "sure" Strangelv-2
says, "Danke" Rose/Miros says, "y ou have to use port 7777" Strangelv-2
says, "I believe I successfully communicated that" Strangelv-2 was using
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Telnet-on-Mac-OS-X for a guide Strangelv-2 says,
"There was something about Command.N but i didn't understand the step and
skipped it. Peter also found it confusing." Rose/Miros says, "command is
what macs use instead of alt" Rose/Miros says, "m aybe put up something
like "Mayan end of calendar is just like Y2K. Don't be an idjit.""
Strangelv-2 says, "That might be the problem" Strangelv-2 says, "NO, Y2k
was actually serious, but it was mostly adressenda nd the bullet mostly
dodged" Rose/Miros says, "i mean idjits like the lady who put dozens of
portapotties in her yard because she thought flush toilets wouldn't work
and was going to charg e the neighbors to pee" Lunadyne says, "She's a
prepper!" Rose/Miros says, "the basic y2k problem under windows can be
explained by the difference between 1900+tm_year (correct) and "19"
(concatenate) tm_year" Rose/Miros says, "can we get off the subject of
idjits andback on the website and wishful thinking?" Rose/Miros says,
"since that's info philip wants?" dcarson says, "ok walkked Peter through
connecting and through installing a new client" dcarson says, "he get to
the moo and gets the banner but can't login as himself or guest" Lunadyne
says, "I've given lots of feedback so far. I'd like to hear what other
folks want in the new website." dcarson says, "so I think either his ISP or
maybe his firewall is filtering out something" dcarson says, "suggested he
call tech support at the ISP" Rose/Miros says, "he might have to unblock
port 7777" dcarson says, "yeah but not something to do here" Strangelv-2
says, "If he's getting the ASI MOO screen that's different than any
firewall isse I've ever seen" Rose/Miros says, "on his firewall maybe"
Rose/Miros says, "i'm seeing the team areas as a place to brainstorm and
have prelimiary drafts, with the mailing list being used to shape the
brainstorming and bring changes to the rest of the team's attention"
PhilipC has arrived. Rose/Miros says, "there's philip" PhilipC says, "hello
everyone" Rose/Miros says, "i'mattempting to get people into wishful
thinking mode" Rose/Miros [to repeat]: myself: i'm seeing the team areas as
a place to brainstorm and have prelimiary drafts, with the mailing list
being used to shape the brainstorming and bring changes to the rest of the
team's attention pjbanyai says, "If we could update the MOO, he could login
through safari. The last database update 6 years ago allowed access with
html." pjbanyai says, "Java is no longer needed." Rose/Miros says, "but
whould that require getting randall's attention?" dcarson says, "maybe"
Strangelv-2 says, "Replacing Mootcan would be VERY welcome" dcarson says,
"I can do a lot of stuff if I know what needs to be done and can check that
it won't mess up something else" Strangelv-2 says, "It's messy, quirky,
unreliable, and naturally what most people use to get in here" dcarson
says, "but Peter had the same problem with a stand alone client so it isn't
the java clinet that is the problem" pjbanyai says, "Since Cyberteams uses
the same database for all their clients Randall would have to work on it."
dcarson says, "and lets not do that here and now" Rose/Miros says, "he has
lifetime membership,so his membership didn't run out" pjbanyai says, "If it
is a problem with port 7777 then www ports like 80 should work fine."
Rose/Miros says, "how about we call aworking meeting,dana'schoice of
attendies and time?" Rose/Miros says, "since he's the primary repair person
and can probably get randall'sattention if necessary" dcarson says, "it
works fine for the rest of us it is at Peters end" Rose/Miros says, "and
peter usually can get in, so something CHANGED atpeter's end" PhilipC says,
"We need to stop designing the system based on what people here are
comfortable with, and to start thinking about what would draw in the type
of people we want to recruit." Lunadyne says, "Exactly." Lunadyne says, "A
point I was making to Rose earlier was that if our Teams architecture
actually worked for us, then I would have us come up with about ten Teams
and make all the members join at least one." Rose/Miros says, "dana and i
need to finish integrating team dir and drupal" Rose/Miros wonders ifshe's
installed "apply for role" and if that can be made to talk to teamdir
Rose/Miros says, "that's a note to myself, everyone elsecan ignore it"
Rose/Miros says, "basically, we need to get rid of the intermediate level
which needs to be updated whenever someone joins or leaves a team"
Rose/Miros says, "i.e. Rose adds Ken to team X. Ken logs into the website
and Team Xcontent automatically shows up AND Ken also gets the team emails"
Rose/Miros says, "just being on team xshouldgive you acces, you shouldn't
have to be given access as well. that's a step that someone can forget and
kill the new member's enthusiasm" Rose/Miros says, "if ken is currently
logged in, he might need to log out and back in, but that should be the max
that needs bedone" pjbanyai says, "I still think ApacheWave is best as a
communication hub. However, OpenSim (http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page)
could possibly be linked to the MOO and could provide a Secondlife like
experience as an alternative connection option." Rose/Miros says, "mike was
looking at something like that" Rose/Miros says, "but we don't want to
stress potentially underpowered machines" Lunadyne says, "That's something
that would need a whole Team to support." Strangelv-2 says, "or
sufficiently powered machines that are heavily stressed by othter running
applications. Also there's tablet based machines that aren't exactly
pushing the bleding edge of performance..." Rose/Miros says, "i.e. i don't
wantmy machine so dedicatedto the meeting going on that it can't open a
webpage to look something up" Rose/Miros says, "I don't think we can give
peopple a "2.0" experience, is there a point to porting to a "1.5" platform
just to get away from the 1.0 moo?" Rose/Miros says, "i mean just for
meetings andstuff,notfor the wholesite" pjbanyai has disconnected. pjbanyai
has connected. Lunadyne says, "Hi Paul!" dcarson says, "for use this works,
for town hall and annual we should probably find a better place" dcarson
says, "I don't think facebook is it" Lunadyne says, "Agreed." dcarson says,
"but that seperate from the website" Strangelv-2 couldn't even finsld the
last town hall on Facebook Rose/Miros says, "dkype isn't it either,
especailly not as a voice chat" pjbanyai says, "ApacheWave (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Wave) is a server based application
which is accessed by browser." PhilipC says, "These are areas that the Web
Committee and Web Team need to explore." PhilipC says, "I dropped the ball
in having any follow up meeting with the Web Committee in exploring our
options due to me having to play nursemaid to my mother who's going through
cancer and my father who just had triple heart bypass surgery last month."
Rose/Miros says, "eek, give him my best wishes" PhilipC says, "The Web
Committee needs to parse out our existing web assets to its members, all of
whom need to do a little homework to see what other substitute products or
services exist in the marketplace." PhilipC says, "I think these meetings
waste a precious resource." Strangelv-2 says, "Which is?" Rose/Miros says,
"then we need a web committee meeting" PhilipC says, "We're here in real
time. That's very valuable. We should spend our discussions in asynchronous
discussion boards and leave the meetings for decision making." Strangelv-2
says, "Something along those lines could implove participation form other
time zones" Lunadyne says, "Does the Web Team/Committee have decisions for
us to make at this point?" Rose/Miros says, "that gets recursive, weneed to
make decisions to set that up tomake futuredecisions to improve tha t, etc"
Strangelv-2 says, "Been awhile since anyone's lured Vik into a meeting"
PhilipC says, "Rose, we already have a Moon Society Forum. We just need to
reactivate it." dcarson says, "very true Philip" pjbanyai says, "Wave was
based on the tv show Firefly's futuristic communication system. It combines
chat, forum, voice, video, maps, polls, documents, and any other possible
app you can think up." Lunadyne says, "Quien es Vik?" Strangelv-2 says,
"Vik Olliver. Among other things he did the 3D artwork used on the Artemis
Project poster" Rose/Miros says, "or does the forum end up another
disconnected resource?" dcarson says, "Vik Oliver from New Zealand"
Strangelv-2 can't remember ever even being on the forum Lunadyne says, "Oy!
My partner in OutoftheCradle.net is from NZ." Lunadyne says, "Don't like
forums - they're a PITA to manage." Strangelv-2 says, "It's a poin to keep
track of too many. ...And I already have too many to keep track of"
Rose/Miros says, "if it's not public and it will besuperceded, does it
matter if it'smanaged, orther than to cutunproductive threads short?"
Strangelv-2 says, "So could we consolidate access to a bunch ofg things
using Wave?" Lunadyne says, "We've got about 10 minutes left. Any business
that needs to be done by year end?" Strangelv-2 says, "ie forum, wikis,
MOO, email lists, et c.?" Strangelv-2 is unfamiliar with Wave but is
getting more interested, even if he fears a learning curve he may not
normalyl be up for dealing with dcarson says, "I've entered all the
membership sales data and the checkbook, need to talk to Scotty about which
account some of the checks get assigned to" Rose/Miros says, "i have to do
a drugstore run sometimetomorrow (running out ofone pill), but can we havea
wave evaluation meeting sometimetomorrow?" Lunadyne says, "Any way that can
be wrapped up by year-end? I'm really, really anxious to get a clean
audit." dcarson says, "but I'm close to done" dcarson says, "not sure with
the holidays but I'll email Scotty a list of questins and a report"
pjbanyai says, "The moonsocietyforum.com site was setup by one of our
chapters. This was closed down due to spam. We also had our own earlier
version of phpBB at moonsociety.org/phpBB. Randall uninstalled the main
copy of this also due to spam. I think another copy is located at the
webteams private page. However, with the server update this copy is no
longer working correctly. " Rose/Miros says, "just so more ofus than pj ar
e familiar with wave" PhilipC says, "couldn't we resolve the spam issue by
using captchas or some other barrier to entry?" Rose/Miros says, "or if
it's jus tthe webteam/committee, how about dana and i finish the team dir
communication and we do it there?" Rose/Miros says, "there=prototype site"
Rose/Miros says, "anything available to the general publicwill befull of
spam" pjbanyai says, "I think the moonsocietyforum.com had captchas
working. Our phpBB2 version did not have them. Moonsocietyforum.com phpBB3
has more security options than the previous version." PhilipC says, "There
HAS to be a way to resolve that problem. Forums are simply too valuable a
tool to abandon because of spam. Perhaps we can make it so that only
members can post in the forums?" dcarson says, "requiring registration with
approval helps" dcarson says, "so membes plus anyone we want" PhilipC says,
"If we have forums, we can have an opportunity to share a greater volume of
ideas, and then use meetings here primarily for agreeing what has already
been decided in the forums." Rose/Miros says, "which isour goal wi th the
drupal module" Lunadyne says, "Okay, 10pm. I move for a soft adjournment,
with the web discussion continuing." Rose/Miros says, "ok" Strangelv-2 can
neither so move or second dcarson says, "second" PhilipC says, "The meeting
is now adjourned." Strangelv-2 says, "...but if ther's no objection it can
be said to have passed..." Rose/Miros says, "didn't we figureout we could
allmoveandsecond?" Strangelv-2 says, "DEpends on the meeting" 
-- End log: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:04:09 pm ASI Meeting Server time --