-- Start log: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 9:16:54 pm ASI Meeting Server time-- 
pjbanyai says, "Possible Outreach topics 1) NRC paper, 2)Starship
Congress in August in Texas, 3) 100YSS Symposium in September also in
Texas" bnault says, "test" Strangelv-3 says, "reply" PhilipC says, "Hello
everyone, thank you for coming to the 2013 June 19 Management Committee
Meeting" Strangelv-3 may not be as conversational as normal this meeting
PhilipC says, "Let's get started." PhilipC says, "For the purpose of taking
attendance, will everyone present please state your name and position for
the record" PhilipC says, "Philip Crume, Chairman" bnault says, "Ben Nault,
Director" Lunadyne says, "Ken Murphy, president" Strangelv-3 says, "James
Gholston, Secretary" Scottyg-1 says, "Scotty Gammenthaler, Assistant
Treasurer" pjbanyai says, "Paul Banyai, Vice President" dcarson says, "Dana
Carson Treasurer" PhilipC says, "Let the record show that as of the start
of this meeting, Alan Steinberg, Rose Dieteman, and Jason Tuttle are not
present, but may appear at a later time." PhilipC says, "Let the record
also show that we have quorum." PhilipC says, "I'd like to direct all of
you to your e-mails. James sent the minutes for the last meeting to the
leaders listserv before the start of this meeting. If you have already had
a chance to review it, please state that you've read it. If you have any
objections, questions, or corrections, please state them." PhilipC says, "I
have read it without objection." Rose/Miros has arrived. dcarson says,
"read it" PhilipC says, "Let the record also show that Rose Dieteman has
arrived and is present." Rose/Miros says, "did anyone read my suggested
agenda on the website?" Lunadyne says, "Looks fine. (the James Minutes)"
bnault says, "readt it, no objection" PhilipC says, "Hi Rose, we're just
getting started. We just took attendance and I'm giving everyone an
opportunity to review the minutes before we vote on their
approval/disapproval." PhilipC says, "We haven't discussed the agenda yet."
PhilipC says, "Rose, I refer you to your email and ask that you review the
minutes for the last meeting. If you have any objections please let us
know. Otherwise please state that you've read it so that I'll know that we
can move on." PhilipC says, "Has everyone read the minutes already?"
PhilipC says, "So far, I have myself, Ken, Ben, and Dana" Rose/Miros says,
"i have too" PhilipC says, "I presume James has no objection since he wrote
it. Paul? Any objection?" pjbanyai says, "I have read them too. No
objection." dcarson says, "none that I see" PhilipC says, "Can I have a
motion to approve the minutes?" Rose/Miros says, "moved" PhilipC says,
"Thank you." PhilipC says, "Any second?" bnault says, "second" PhilipC
says, "What say you? Aye or nay?" Rose/Miros says, "aye" Lunadyne says,
"Aye" bnault says, "aye" pjbanyai says, "aye" Strangelv-3 documents that
the motion passes PhilipC says, "The motion carries" PhilipC says, "Okay
moving on" PhilipC says, "I open the floor for a few minutes to discuss the
agenda" PhilipC says, "Specifically what we will put on the agenda" PhilipC
says, "Other than the membership report and treasurer's report, will there
be any other reports?" PhilipC says, "Rose?" Rose/Miros says, "web report:
I've been busy hauling hubby to medical appointments and dealing with drug
reactions, so I haven't converted more than one or two more pages"
Rose/Miros says, "scotty?" PhilipC says, "I mentioned before the start of
this meeting that if we have no subtantive business, we can convene early
and leave the remainder of the time open to discuss membership engagement"
PhilipC says, "Is there any old or new business we want to discuss? "
Scottyg-1 says, "I have nothing of substance to report. We are working
behind the scenes to get out subdomains set up properly." PhilipC says, "I
want to close discussion for items to put on the agenda in 2 minutes"
Rose/Miros says, "Appoint election secretary (Peter sez we need one)"
PhilipC says, "Thank you, we'll put that after the reports" PhilipC says,
"I want to close discussion for items to put on the agenda in 2 minutes"
PhilipC says, "sorry" PhilipC says, "Let's move on" PhilipC says, "First,
the membership report. Ken?" Lunadyne says, "Membership Report: currently
showing 159 members, continuing the slight downward trend we've been seeing
this year." Lunadyne says, "Our recent high was, IIRC, 172 members."
PhilipC says, "Does anyone have any questions?" Lunadyne says, "Questions?
If not I cede the floor." PhilipC says, "I have a question" dcarson says,
"none here" pjbanyai says, "Usually the election Secretary defaults to
either the VP or the Secretary since they usually are elected different
years. I believe Ben was also a secondary choice for Election Secretary in
the past when there was a conflict with both default choices being on the
ballot." PhilipC says, "This might need a little research, which you can
report next time, what is the length of time our members have been with us,
and of those that are leaving, how long long have they been with us?"
PhilipC says, "Paul, we'll discuss that after the web committee report."
pjbanyai says, "sorry" Lunadyne says, "Philip, not sure I can get the data
to give you a direct response to that. I don't see a join date in the
membership report I generate. " dcarson says, "the detailed report on
indivual members has all transaction dates, so the info is there" PhilipC
says, "Having a join date break down might help clue us in to who's leaving
and why" PhilipC says, "Perhaps next time" PhilipC says, "Could you send us
that information prior to the start of the next meeting?" Lunadyne says,
"Where do I get the 'detailed report on individual members'? I'm not seeing
that on my reports screen." PhilipC says, "Ken?" dcarson says, "
http://moonsociety.org/cgi-bin/teamdir/teamdir?_JavaScript=Yes&" PhilipC
says, "Gentlemen, we need to move on" pjbanyai says, "Teamdir has a custum
query however there is no help on how to use it." Rose/Miros says, "stop by
the moo and we'll help you figure it out" dcarson says, "Find Member and
look for a indivual member" Lunadyne says, "1,466 times?" Scottyg-1 says,
"Ken, you will need to use the "Custom Query" to get a report for all
members with that info. And to do that you have to know the database
structure and how to construct SQL queries." Scottyg-1 says, "I can help
with those." PhilipC says, "We can figure this out later, but we need to
move on" Lunadyne says, "Hey, you started it... lol!" PhilipC says, "I
know, but we need to multi-task and use live/synchronized time wisely"
PhilipC says, "We can have a more detailed report via e-mail" Rose/Miros
pokes at PhilipC. Rose/Miros says, "WEBSITE" Rose/Miros says, "no stinking
email" PhilipC says, "If there's no objection, I'd like to give the floor
to Dana for the treasurers report" dcarson says, "went to NASA FCU and
talked to them" dcarson says, "have the paperwork to create a Moon Scoiety
account, will need to email people for some of the documents but nothing
hard to get" dcarson says, "will talk to special account person tomorrow
since we are a out of state company and a non profit" dcarson says, "any
questions on tha tpart?" Rose/Miros says, "makes sense" Lunadyne says, "The
minutes you need should be the one showing the vote on approving the
account. two or three meetings ago." dcarson says, "part 2" dcarson says,
"talked to a CPA and found out why most don't respond" dcarson says,
"current standatrds call for malpractice insurance and peer reviews for
soing audits and small firms can't really afford it" dcarson says, "the
cheapest shes seen a larger firm do an audit is $3K" dcarson says, "she can
have a retired CPA that works with her do a audit for $350 but it won't be
official but eill give us the data we need" dcarson says, "I don't see 3K
value in a formal/offical audit" dcarson says, "the unofficial sounds
worthwhile" dcarson says, "part 3" Strangelv-3 looks at Ken and Philip
dcarson says, "no new expenses this month" Lunadyne says, "Neither do I.
It's part of the corporatisation of the U.S. As long as we get a letter
saying nothing hinky was found in the books, I'm happy." dcarson says,
"done" dcarson says, "questions?" Lunadyne says, "What exactly would be
delivered for the $350?" Strangelv-3 says, "What might be the best official
name or description for what's unofficially an audit?" dcarson says,
"informal audit?" Strangelv-3 doesn't like the term unofficial Strangelv-3
says, "Informal might imply something softer than what we're doing" PhilipC
says, "Please remind me again why we need an audit? " Rose/Miros says,
"something to do with amazon iirc" Lunadyne says, "And PayPal." dcarson
says, "because we want to apply for Amazon nonprofit support and other
grants and it has been so long that we want to make sure the books are
correct" Lunadyne says, "It's also why we had to do that whole register at
the NFP website and fill in a bunch of text boxes - to establish our
legitimacy as a 501c3 org." PhilipC says, "That's all from me. " PhilipC
says, "Does anyone else have any questions?" Lunadyne says, "Also, our
990-Ns had lapsed, leaving further in the hole vis-a-vis 501c3 status.
Those are caught up, and I want an audit to take to PayPal and Amazon and
others to show how we're legit." Strangelv-3 wonders if we want to document
this list somewhere. He does'nt believe the minuetsa re the correct
location Rose/Miros says, "ok, i'll copypasta" PhilipC says, "Dana, do you
cede hte floor?" dcarson says, "yes" PhilipC says, "Now for the website
committee report. Rose, you have the floor." Rose/Miros says, "ok"
Rose/Miros says, "i haven't had much time, but I'm working on the glossary
page" Rose/Miros says, "i would like to explore the popup module, so you
could hover over a word and get the meaning, but that's a to-do" Rose/Miros
says, "i believe scotty said he's still workikng on the ssl cert and the
subdomains" Rose/Miros says, "any questions?" Rose/Miros says, "oh, we
should attempt to online collaborate" Rose/Miros says, "at least the
AGENDA" Rose/Miros says, "test.moonsociety.org/agenda" Rose/Miros says,
"and http://test.moonsociety.org/node/126 is the copypasta of Why we need
an audit" Rose/Miros says, "any questions?" Lunadyne says, "I'm still not
clear on how to get to the NRC Report project page." Lunadyne says, "I
don't see it in current projects." Rose/Miros says, "you mean the human
space flight white papers?" Rose/Miros says, "
http://test.moonsociety.org/HSF" Lunadyne says, "That's the one." Lunadyne
says, "You do not have permission to view this page. " dcarson says, "we
might want to move tha to where anyone can make suggestions" Rose/Miros
says, "you have to be logged in. all members of the 'leaders' group should
automatically see that" Rose/Miros says, "err see the Leaders area, then
click on that and see the white papers thing" Lunadyne says, "Tried logging
in. It doesn't like the U/N & P/W I used to get here." Lunadyne says,
"probably something goofy like kmurphy" Rose/Miros says, "um, maybe I set
it up for you" PhilipC says, "Let's resolve access issues afterwards (I'll
need help there too)" Rose/Miros says, "ok, i can double check account
names and hand set passwords later" PhilipC says, "Are there any other
questions here for Rose related to the website committee report?" Lunadyne
says, "That worked" PhilipC says, "If there's nothing else, let's move on
to the next item" dcarson says, "none here" PhilipC says, "Peter mentioned
that we need to appoint an elections secretary. I'll open the floor for
discussion." Rose/Miros says, "obviously it needs to be someone not up for
election" Strangelv-3 meant to ask Mike about his availability for the task
Lunadyne says, "I'd offer, but I have a pony in this race, in that I'm
rooting for my friend Jimm Keravala." dcarson says, "with this small a
group no one is totally unbased" dcarson says, "biased either" bnault says,
"I served as Elections Sec a few yrs ago. Willing to be drafted."
Strangelv-3 says, "Charles Radley, IIRC, has served in this role before"
PhilipC says, "If Ben here is willing, let's go with it. " dcarson says,
"aye" Strangelv-3 tries to think of other name,s but they're usualyl people
who fled the SEcretary's position Strangelv-3 says, "Should we take that as
a nomination?" Strangelv-3 moves to open nominations Rose/Miros says,
"moved" PhilipC says, "Second?" Lunadyne says, "second" dcarson says,
"second" Strangelv-3 says, "Call" Lunadyne says, "aye" dcarson says, "aye"
PhilipC says, "aye" pjbanyai says, "aye" Rose/Miros says, "aye" PhilipC
says, "The motion carries" Strangelv-3 points at Dana, who had a nomination
Rose/Miros nominates Ben Lunadyne says, "second" Strangelv-3 looks around
for other nominations Strangelv-3 awaits a motion to close nominations
Rose/Miros says, "moved" Lunadyne says, "second" PhilipC says, "Let's call
the question" PhilipC says, "What say you? Aye or nay?" Rose/Miros says,
"aye" Lunadyne Aye dcarson says, "ayeaye" Lunadyne says, "Aye" Strangelv-3
has no objection pjbanyai says, "aye" Lunadyne says, "Does no objection
count as an abstention?" Strangelv-3 isn't documenting it either way
Lunadyne says, "LOL!" PhilipC says, "The ayes have it. The motion is
carried." Strangelv-3 says, "Shall I document that Ben Nault was elected by
acclaimation?" dcarson says, "there is a reason why the guy with all the
power in the SU was the general securaty" PhilipC says, "James, go for it!"
Rose/Miros sneaks off to fix a muffing for the hubby Strangelv-3 so records
Strangelv-3 says, "Next?" bnault says, "I will need access to the Elections
email list and have the emails redirected to me." PhilipC says, "This
concludes the agenda. I'd like to adjourn early and then spend the rest of
the time in open discussion about ways to engage members." PhilipC says,
"So any one who'd like to leave early may do so." Strangelv-3 looks for any
motion at all. To adjourn or something else PhilipC says, "If there's no
objection to adjourning early, can I have motion to that effect?" dcarson
says, "Ben,
http://www.moonsociety.org/cgi-bin/helpdir/helpdir?_JavaScript=Yes& and
subscribe to the elections mailbox" pjbanyai says, "Ben You can access the
email with helpdir at http://www.moonsociety.org/helpdir/. You already have
an account with access to the email box." Strangelv-3 says, "Move to
adjourn" PhilipC says, "Any second?" dcarson says, "if that broke in the
move I can patch around it" dcarson says, "second" Strangelv-3 says, "Any
objection?" PhilipC says, "If there is no objection to adjournment, we are
adjourned." Strangelv-3 notes that the time was 21:37 pjbanyai says, "For
some reason helpdir does not forward emails correctly to those members
subscribed to a mailbox." pjbanyai says, "Probably the same problem that we
have with the MOO's email." PhilipC says, "I'd like to leave on the
recorder until 11 pm to capture any conversation regarding membership
engagement for posterity."" PhilipC says, "We are now adjourned" PhilipC
says, "Anyone who'd like to leave early is free to do so" dcarson says,
"getting dinner, back in a minute" pjbanyai says, "Reminder we need to work
on the white paper. Currently we plan on a town meeting next week for input
from the discussion group." Strangelv-3 says, "What are our least expensive
data gathering solutions if the purpose is usable more that publishable?
Facebook, what else?" PhilipC says, "Paul, thanks for the reminder"
pjbanyai says, "The Liftport Group is also working on a paper and has
already mentioned it on their Facebook group." Lunadyne says, "Now that
I've got access I can start working on it. I think our general approach
should be that NASA human spaceflight is best served by establishing
cislunar space as a domain to be mastered in space activities." dcarson
says, "back" Lunadyne says, "NASA can support activities like fuel depots
and crewed trips to GEO and EML-1 to build a capability base to be
leveraged for future activities." Rose/Miros says, "and the ability to
receive stuff on the way down" Lunadyne says, "Also an outline of Lunar
activities benefitting from a crewed presence." PhilipC says, "Are all of
you aware of the recent requirement by the Congressional Science Committee
that demands that NASA develop a program for the purpose of establishing a
human presence on the Moon?" PhilipC says, "Of course this program will
probably not include increased funding" Lunadyne says, "Without funding I
consider it an empty demand." PhilipC says, "However I think if we can make
the point that NASA ought to interpret "human presence" in as broad a
definition as possible, we might have room to maneuver telepresence "
Lunadyne says, "The case has to be made on reason and logic, not appeals to
Congresssional "authority"." pjbanyai says, "NASA is redirecting info on
future Moon missions to the Goldenspike company." Strangelv-3 says,
"Deweropinga progrlam without additional funding might be feasible, if that
means coming up with an idea and sending it to the GPO for printing..."
Strangelv-3 says, "REquirement acchieved, end of story." dcarson says, "and
the other side is NASA will fantasize that this means Apollo is back and
submit a plan that requires quadrupling NASAs budget" Lunadyne says, "Which
is exactly what we don't need." Lunadyne says, "Part of this boils down to
a huge generation gap in perceptions." Strangelv-3 says, "The current guy
might do something differen,t but how much longer is he going to be holding
on to his job?" Lunadyne says, "Greatest, Silent and Baby Boomer
generations grew up in eras where government could achieve great things."
Strangelv-3 says, "And Millenials already outnumber the Boomers. The
Busters, no longer the hip generation, are already entering obscurity"
Lunadyne says, "Gen Xers and Millenials grew up in an era where government
has been in corrupt service in enrichment of the priveleged. We don't see
big government programs as the solution to much of anything." Strangelv-3
says, "To anyone with a mass market mindset, we're irrelewant now" pjbanyai
says, "Correction the White House itself is redirecting future moon mission
plans to Goldenspike at
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking"
Lunadyne says, "Our goal, then, should be to show how the government human
spaceflight program can be of use in making cislunar space a place of human
economic activity." Rose/Miros says, "anyone else need a website account?"
Strangelv-3 says, "Bolden might go along with that. I have no hope of his
successor doing the same." Lunadyne says, "Oh, I don't expect our work to
amount to much of anything when it comes to NASA, but it is a chance to
make a compelling case for human Lunar activity." Strangelv-3 says, "Are
Gaver and Whitesides still in there?" PhilipC says, "I have long held the
position that we need to develop a significant teleoperated robotic
presence on the Moon to really do anything there" PhilipC says, "If such a
presence is large enough to self-replicate, then we'll unlock the potential
to truly commercialize it" Lunadyne says, "who fixes the robots? Or do we
just send a constant stream of new ones?" PhilipC says, "other teleoperated
robots" Lunadyne says, "Um, sure." PhilipC says, "as long as we can
manufacture more than are breaking, the issue becomes moot" PhilipC says,
"if for example we can manufacture say 100k robots a month and only 10k
break, operators won't know the difference" dcarson says, "or semi
replicate, if you need to ship the electronics but all the bulk parts are
local the shipping is lesst then 10% if the weight" pjbanyai says, "NASA
and DARPA setup the 100YSS Project as a long term plan for human space
flight. The purpose of the Starship Congress meeting in August is to map
out a general plan for the next 100 years. Day 1 will focus on what can be
feasibly realized over the next two decades. Day 2 will focus on what can
be accomplished on a timescale to begin 20 years from now, out to the next
50 years. Areas of interest will include fusion rockets, antimatter
rockets, future economics, colonizing and populating the solar system,
asteroid mining, and commercialization of space. Day 3 will focus on what
we can accomplish on very long timescales beginning 50 years from now and
extending out to the next 500 years. Areas of interest will include
exploring and populating nearby star systems, the ethics of colonization,
SETI and first-contact scenarios, exotic propulsion, warp drives,
wormholes, vacuum energy, worldships, hibernation ships and humanitys
expansion into the galaxy. Days 1 a! nd 2 are of most importance to us.
Last month Robert Zubrin showed up a 2 day conference loosly connected to
the 100YSS to promote Mars as the best place to focus on for the immediate
future." PhilipC says, "that's not only 100k robots, that's 100k jobs "
Lunadyne says, "100k teleoperated robots per month? Your payroll must be
huge!" Rose/Miros says, "paul, can you paste that onto the whitepaper
page?" PhilipC says, "100k x 50k = 5b" Strangelv-3 says, "If we send enough
expendabrle robots, repairing them once we get people there as they find
them won't be the same sort of problem that reusing cold ware stuff would
be" pjbanyai says, "sure" Strangelv-3 says, "Quesiton is how long can we
keep them cunning overnight?" Strangelv-3 says, "Or do we go the throwaway
route and not even try?" Lunadyne says, "NSS of North Texas is trying to
figure out some way to get involved with 100YSS." Rose/Miros says, "and
pick up the frozen pieces when we actually get there" Lunadyne says,
"Philip - that's 100,000 (90,000 net) PER Month. Unsustainable." PhilipC
says, "so long as the robots can be insulated during the lunar night and
avoid thermal damage, they can either operate in a facility run on battery
power or go in hibernation mode, while teleoperations switch to othe
facilities" dcarson says, "don't need to run overnight, just survive so
they can restatrt" PhilipC says, "in that case, they can be placed in
hibernation mode while we build additional facilities" PhilipC says, "there
are global industries large enough to support a significant workforce."
PhilipC says, "or should i say global economic sectors" Lunadyne says, "Um,
guys, the goal of The Moon Society is "humans" living and working on the
Moon. We need to communicate that, not endless replicating and
self-repairing robots." dcarson says, "the more economic activity there the
cheaper and more off the shelf getting people ther is" Strangelv-3 says,
"Focus on the end objective for the robots? Complication with the
self-repairing and assembly angle is I'm not sure our technology base is
yet able to deliver on that" PhilipC says, "the "keep the human pilot in
the program" argument originates from the mercury missions" Lunadyne says,
"Wasn't around for those. Do want to be around to see humans living and
working on the Moon." Strangelv-3 says, "In this case it's a drone pilot
building the landing pad for the other pilot to get to in person?" PhilipC
says, "it was also the original justification for space stations "as remote
sensing satellites". but technology keeps pushing us out of the equation.
the only real justification for having humans in space will be on Mars
where the distance makes remote operations impractical and giving control
of an operation to AI is unthinkable" PhilipC says, "the moon however is
close enough for remote operations to make economic and business sense so
long as the operations are not considered too experimental" Lunadyne says,
"But is that what you're going to propose we submit to the NRC for
consideration for their human spaceflight report?" dcarson says, "tourism
is a possible prifitable business, the time needed for a trip can be a week
or so" PhilipC says, "in my view, demonstrating the proof of concept and
system reliability is the single most important thing we need to do.
Because it opens access to investment." dcarson says, "need people as staff
for that" PhilipC says, "I'd like to see a dual-track approach. With one
track laying the foundation upon which an in-space economy can be built,
one that becomes an extension of our global economy, thereby creating a new
cis-lunar econosphere." Lunadyne says, "Agreed, and cislunar space is where
those crewed proof of concept and system reliability issues are going to be
wrung out." Strangelv-3 says, "We probably need to find wayls to enforce
that ad the end of the day the entire reson for doing whatever X is is to
get people up there" PhilipC says, "The second track, would be that once
this cislunar econosphere becomes economically sustainable, we develop a
program for colonizing all available places possible in the solar system"
Strangelv-3 says, "We should have such plans already in place, being
tweaked and updated and revised and upgraded" PhilipC says, "With the first
track, we can build a comprehensive industrial economy on the Moon, using
teleoperated robots." Strangelv-3 says, "Ideally with some
entreprenaurial-minded person grabbing it from somewhere and acting on it
on their own meforle we would" PhilipC says, "This industrial economy can
build space infrastructure, deep spacecraft, and space colonies" Lunadyne
says, "Philip, again, this is for a CREWED HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT report.
Teleoperations recommendations are of marginal value in this regard."
PhilipC says, "The second track gets people up there." pjbanyai says,
"Reminder: In developing their papers, respondents are asked to carefully
consider the following broad questions." Strangelv-3 says, "Teleoperations
are a force multiplier" Rose/Miros says, "going to bed, see ya tomorrow,
james isin charege of new accounts til i get up" Strangelv-3 says, "We
can't get enough people up there early on as we want to. This is a
discussion we need peter in on" dcarson says, "how a human presence can cut
the cost of teleoperation by some factor by making 90% reliable good enough
since you have someone local to deal wit the exceptions might be good"
PhilipC says, "As far as HSF, NASA could build a space outpost that uses
tethers to simulate a space colony." Lunadyne says, "We have to focus on
recommendations that serve to bolster the case for having a government
human spaceflight program. White papers on how to do it are a dime a dozen.
REASONS and RATIONALES that are compelling and make sense for humans to be
in the loop - that is where we can add value." dcarson says, "90% costs X,
99% costs 10C often" pjbanyai says, "Reminder: In developing their papers,
respondents are asked to carefully consider the following broad questions.
(1)What are the important benefits provided to the United States and other
countries by human spaceflight endeavors?(2)What are the greatest
challenges to sustaining a U.S. government program in human spaceflight?
(3)What are the ramifications and what would the nation and world lose if
the United States terminated NASA's human spaceflight program?" Strangelv-3
suspects they wouldn't like his direct answors to those questions as
phrosed pjbanyai says, "In discussing the above questions, please describe
the reasoning that supports your arguments and, to the extent possible,
include or cite any evidence that supports your views. In considering #1
above, submitters may consider private as well as government space
programs. " Lunadyne says, "So it boils down to (1) important benefits, (2)
greatest challenges, (3) opportunity costs." Strangelv-3 says, "Private
manned spaceflight I can adamantly get behind" PhilipC says, "On 1) Our HSF
program has already demonstrated what it can do in an zero-g environment.
The problem with this question is that the program itself offers no next
step for in-space commercial development." Lunadyne says, "Is that a
problem of the ISS program, or human spaceflight?" Strangelv-3: (3)What are
the ramifications and what would the nation and world lose if the United
States terminated NASA's human spaceflight program? -- A: Assuming that a
vibrant private sector presence has been successfully established, nothing.
PhilipC says, "This comes from the original Mercury 7 insisting on keeping
humans in the mix for their PR value rather than asking the larger
pragmatic utility of what our desired capabilities should be and how humans
fit into the mix of that capability" Lunadyne says, "I see the responses as
(1) development of cislunar economy (economic growth), (2) lack of current
economic benefits (industry's still too small), and (3) We continue to
squabble and re-divide the resources here on planet Earth." Strangelv-3
says, "Acutally I'm being too kind. It would be a net positive in that case
for the NASA effort to be sunsetted" bnault has disconnected. PhilipC says,
"It took me 10 years to get to the point I just made" Lunadyne says, "I'm
also going to have to head out. I have to drive to the other side of town
to go walk dogs and house sit." PhilipC says, "Sure. We can continue this
some other time. " dcarson says, "saw one analysis of the Mars probes, a
field geoligist could get the same amount of science done in just a couple
of days" PhilipC says, "Let's chat in here before we do anything with
respect to the white paper" dcarson says, "the cost of getting him there is
huge but the efficiency is also huge" Lunadyne says, "we've got to continue
this - we've got a recommendation to submit by July 9th." PhilipC says,
"Dana, I agree that we definitely need humans on Mars" dcarson says,
"cislunar the cost of a person is a lot smaller then Mars" PhilipC says,
"But I would add the proviso that we need to have sustainable space economy
first" Lunadyne says, "Let's let the Mars folks worry about making the case
for people on Mars. We need to focus on people on the Moon and in cislunar
space." Strangelv-3 says, "Without a major tecrh breakthrough any Mars
trips should be one-way. There's too much exposure otherwise. Also, a
colony is an incentive for people to continue to pay attention." Lunadyne
says, "Only if the colony is producing something of value." Strangelv-3
says, "But Mars is a long ways away, and remember the three most important
rules about real estate. It's hard to get a better location than Luna's"
dcarson says, "yeah, but the efficiency ratio for the Moon should be as
high and the cost of a human a lot lower" PhilipC says, "the approach I
mentioned, where we have an ongoing and international lunar industrial
economy... using teleoperated robots... powered by millions of people here
on Earth... which support extensive space colonization efforts is the
approach I'd favor" dcarson says, "3 days lifesupport each way not 18
months" PhilipC says, "teleoperated robots brings the costs down"
Strangelv-3 says, "The colony should efinvitely feel compelled to produce
things of value. information if tnothing else. Also prestige for compatnies
that can claim that they have an office on Mars..." The housekeeper arrives
to cart bnault off to bed. PhilipC says, "I'm not being fair, I'm
continuing this conversation and I know Ken needs to head off to bed. We
can continue this conversation some other time" Strangelv-3 heads afk
dcarson says, "is 11:30 here" PhilipC says, "in my opinion, even if a
teleoperated robot is only 10% as capable as a human being, the ability to
mass produce them washes that handicap away in comparison to a far greater
cost in sending people" PhilipC says, "conversation to be continued..."
Lunadyne has disconnected. PhilipC has disconnected. 
-- End log: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:35:28 pm ASI Meeting Server time --