-- Start log: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:12:19 pm ASI Meeting Server time--
PhilipC says, "is the recorder on?" PhilipC says, "there we go"
Rose/Miros has arrived. PhilipC says, "Welcome to the 2013 July 17
Management Committee meeting" PhilipC says, "I'd like to thank everyone for
being here. We have a lot to cover and this and the next meeting will be
very important for the future of the society. " PhilipC says, "We seem to
have enough members present for a quorum" PhilipC says, "For the purpose of
taking attendance, please state your name and your position" PhilipC says,
"Philip Crume, Chairman" bnault says, "Ben Nault, Director" Scottyg says,
"Scotty Gammenthaler, Assistant Treasurer" dcarson says, "Dana Carson,
Treasurer" Rose/Miros says, "Rosalie Dieteman board member and webmaster"
pjbanyai says, "Paul Banyai, Vice President" Strangelv-3 says, "James
Ghols-ton, Secretary" Lunadyne has arrived. Lunadyne says, "howdy
everyone!" PhilipC says, "Perfect timing" PhilipC says, "We're taking
attendance, please state your name and position" Lunadyne says, "Name: Ken
Murphy. Position: President" PhilipC says, "As of now, we have 7 management
committee members present. Alan Steinberg and Jason Tuttle are currently
absent." PhilipC says, "As I mentioned before, we will have a lot to cover
this meeting. " PhilipC says, "Before we discuss the content of the agenda,
I wish to note that our Secretary, James, has distributed the minutes of
the last meeting via email. I'd like to ask all of you to quickly peruse
its contents. " PhilipC says, "I will then need an MC member to make a
motion for approving the agenda and another member to second." Strangelv-3
says, "Is therea copy of the agoenda?" PhilipC says, "No, it will primarily
be discussion, but a very important one." bnault says, "motion to approve
the minutes as emailed earlier today" PhilipC says, "We have a motion. Do I
have a second?" Rose/Miros says, "second" PhilipC says, "The motion is for
the approval of the 2013 July 3 Management Committee Meeting. I call the
question. Please vote aye or nay." bnault says, "aye" Rose/Miros says,
"aye" Strangelv-3 abstains dcarson says, "aye" Lunadyne says, "aye"
pjbanyai says, "aye" PhilipC says, "aye" PhilipC says, "That is 6 ayes and
1 abstention. The motion carries." PhilipC says, "Now for the agenda."
PhilipC says, "As I mentioned earlier, we only have 2 meetings left this
term. I made the recommendation before that it would be wise of us if we
get all of the boring organizational stuff out of the way so that the next
management committee class can hit the ground running and focus on creating
value for TMS" PhilipC says, "I'd like to make a recommendation that we
suspend discussion of any reports, have a quick business meeting, and then
spend the rest of the time discussing strategy and the future of TMS"
PhilipC says, "I open the floor for discussion on this agenda. " PhilipC
says, "Let's try to wrap up discussion of the agenda in 5 minutes" dcarson
says, "sounds good to me" PhilipC says, "Does this sound reasonable to
everyone?" Strangelv-3 still does'tnt know what the agenda specificalyl is
Rose/Miros says, "not sure if this rises to the level of an agenda items,
but can we start posting the secretary's notes on the website in the
Leaders' area?" Rose/Miros says, "and the agenda?" PhilipC says, "The topic
of discussion that I'd like to have will revolve around a five year plan,
our growth strategy, our value proposition to our members, and TMS'
mission" Lunadyne says, "I've been reflecting lately that a lot of
initiatives that I've tried to institute have stalled out." PhilipC says,
"and revising the bylaws so that we can more easily scale up as an
organization" PhilipC says, "Basically, big picture stuff with the purpose
of providing a blueprint for diving into the details" PhilipC says, "lots
of organizational and administrative structure that we can streamline to
make life easier for future management committees" PhilipC says, "I'm not
getting a lot of feedback and so I assume that no one has any problem with
this" Rose/Miros says, "we also have 2 old business items, the joint
chapter thing and a special offer for previous members" Strangelv-3 didn't
exactly have much time to think about this in advance given the short
notice PhilipC says, "tonight will be a brainstorm session" Strangelv-3
wonders what Ken is thinking in terms of Strangelv-3 says, "A brainstorming
session I could go with" PhilipC says, "Five minutes are up. I will now
close any further discussion on the agenda." PhilipC says, "Tonight's
agenda will consist of:" Strangelv-3 says, "Point of order: So reports,
onld business, nhen a brainstorming session" Strangelv-3 says, "Or rathe,r
point of information" PhilipC says, "1) Reports" PhilipC says, "A)
Membership" PhilipC says, "B) Treasury" PhilipC says, "C) Website (if any)"
PhilipC says, "2) Old Business" PhilipC says, "A) Joint chapters" PhilipC
says, "B) Membership fees" PhilipC says, "3) Brainstorm session "
Rose/Miros says, "2c) recruiting previous members" PhilipC says, "4)
Announcements." Strangelv-3 might have an item to add: could we put Mike
under the same special exception that we put Randall Severy under a few
years ago? PhilipC says, "Recruiting previous members will come up in the
brainstorm session" PhilipC says, "We'll cover that in membership fees"
PhilipC says, "Without further ado, let's get started" bnault says, "Guys,
as stated at the beginning of the meeting, I need to run...my apologies."
bnault has disconnected. PhilipC says, "Before we get started, is there any
objection to suspending discussion of the reports (for the purpose of
gaining as much time for the brainstorming session as possible)" dcarson
says, "sounds good to me" Rose/Miros says, "works for me" Strangelv-3 does
not object PhilipC says, "Point of order: Ben Nault has left the meeting.
We now have 6 voting members with 3 absent. We still have quorum." Lunadyne
says, "Fine" PhilipC says, "I need one more person to affirm suspension"
Rose/Miros says, "affirm" PhilipC says, "Thank you. I remind you all that
discussion is suspending for all reports this meeting." Rose/Miros says,
"or did i already agree?" Lunadyne says, "You already agreed." PhilipC
says, "James, or Paul, do you concur in suspending discusison?" Strangelv-3
already did PhilipC says, "Yes you did." PhilipC says, "Ken, you have the
floor for the membership committee" pjbanyai says, "Organizational
structure is difficult to implement when team members do not or can not
communicate with each other. I.E. creating a subcommittee or project team
with no method for the members to be actively involved. Note Reports can be
posted to the leaders list." Lunadyne says, "Membership is steady at 159
current members." Lunadyne says, "Facebook likes continue to grow at a much
greater pace than the membership rolls." The housekeeper arrives to cart
bnault off to bed. Lunadyne says, "We're doing something right in being a
source of Moon information, but something wrong in getting people to
actually join." Lunadyne says, "Discussion:" PhilipC says, "Discussion is
suspended" PhilipC says, "Is there anything else to add?" Lunadyne says,
"Not at this time." PhilipC says, "Note, we can cover discussion of our
membership levels during the brainstorming session to take place later"
PhilipC says, "Dana, you have the floor for the treasurer's report."
dcarson says, "no major events in treasurer, couple of moderate
reimbursement checks to send out" Scottyg says, "Bank balance as of June 30
was $31,408.17, up by about $70 from prior month." dcarson says, "Scotty,
latest total?" dcarson says, "done" PhilipC says, "Thank you" PhilipC says,
"Now onto old business" PhilipC says, "Joint chapter" PhilipC goes South.
Strangelv-3 looks south Scottyg says, "LOL" PhilipC has arrived. PhilipC
says, "sorry, I typed in s and left the room" Lunadyne says, "Hi Philip!"
Scottyg says, "Don't think I've ever done that one." Lunadyne says, "lol"
PhilipC says, "lol" dcarson says, "webiste, after a communication mixup I'm
workig on a new SSL cert, secure.moonsociety.org for 3 years will fall into
the amount authorized" dcarson says, "will order it" PhilipC says, "Oh
sorry, forgot about the website " Rose/Miros says, "dana and scotty are
working together to get the certificate" Rose/Miros says, "end of report"
PhilipC says, "Are there any actionable items regarding the website"
PhilipC says, "Anything we need to vote on?" Rose/Miros says, "other than
People should put the minutes and the agenda on there" Rose/Miros rolls her
eyes Scottyg says, "When the new cert arrives, I'll switch the domain names
around." PhilipC says, "Rebuke accepted" PhilipC says, "Hearing no
actionable items regarding the website, let's move on to old business"
PhilipC says, "The issue of the joint chapters brought up by Peter Kokh,
our chapters chair" pjbanyai says, "The original plan for NSS under Greg
was to link the NSS teamdir account with ours. Also is it possible to link
facebook accounts to our Drupal free account registration or setup someway
of directly joining thru facebook?" Rose/Miros says, "i think we need the
new cert first, right scotty?" Strangelv-3 wonders if anyone has had a
chance to look at what bylaws language changes we need where Scottyg says,
"Yes. And I think Facebook could provide a Join link but not the actual
registration pages." PhilipC says, "This is a topic we can discuss during
the brainstorm" Lunadyne says, "On Facebook I'd like a Join button and a
Tip Jar." PhilipC says, "I reiterate myself" PhilipC says, "Let's contain
the topic at hand to joint chapters" Rose/Miros says, "peter sent me a
bunch of info that is currently in a comment on the agenda page" Rose/Miros
says, "http://www2.moonsociety.org/agenda" pjbanyai says, "Has anyone
learned anything from Randall about his original plan for joint chapters in
teamdir?" Rose/Miros says, "can we deligate that to dana or scotty, who
have the best chance of getting an answer in my experience" PhilipC says,
"Since this agenda item seems to require some discussion, let's limit
discussino for five minutes. If we do not have an actionable item after
this time, let's table it for the next meeting." PhilipC says, "I open the
floor for discussion" Lunadyne says, "I thought we were trying to move away
from the TeamDir structure." Rose/Miros says, "from teamdir directly
controlling access to areas on the server" Rose/Miros [to drupal]: using
teamdir login info to assign roles at the time of login, which drills into
drupal's access control PhilipC says, "I also think that a robust
communications program can address the chapter size issue. We can probably
develop a chapter-tier similar to what we have now that allows nonprofits
to claim affiliation with us and/or NSS" Strangelv-3 looks at
http://www.moonsociety.org/organizing-documents/bylaws.html ARTICLE IV -
CHAPTERS Lunadyne says, "I'm generally in favor of joint chapters, as a
form of mutual support society between ourselves and NSS. I would prefer to
keep the administrivia to a minimum to prevent discouragement." Rose/Miros
says, "peter thought this was the relevant bit:
http://www.moonsociety.org/chapters/chapterRules.html" PhilipC says, "So if
the Green Bay Cheesehead Space Society was to be affiliated as a chapter of
sorts with us and NSS, I don't have a problem with that" PhilipC says, "We
probably just need to be clearer on what those tiers are" PhilipC says,
"The issue imho are membership fees" pjbanyai says, "Teamdir is our basic
community content management system. We have not looked into alternate
yet." PhilipC says, "Perhaps we can work with NSS to offer a discounted
joint-membership (but still higher than regular memberships)" dcarson says,
"worth asking" Lunadyne says, "My counsel would be to minimize involvement
with NSS will maximizing association with them." Lunadyne says, "while
maximizing" Strangelv-3 says, "We probably need to note that chapters may
have their own structure and rules forl replacement of their officers. We
should not have blanket power to rearrange them when they have morking
mechanisms to do so themselwves and don't want us to rearrange them
externally" Strangelv-3 is reading the part that says Strangelv-3 says,
"nevermind, I lost my place" Lunadyne says, "I would prefer that we
minimize entaglements with NSS leadership for the time being while they get
their act together. They have a tendency to over-structure things, to the
detriment of the initiative we're trying to encourage." PhilipC says, "I
wish to note that the five minutes for discussion is up. We can cover these
issues during the brainstorming session" PhilipC says, "I need to close
discussion on this agenda item. Can I have a motion to table this issue
again until the next management committee meeting? " PhilipC says, "We WILL
resolve this issue. But what we can discuss next will go a long way in
setting the table so we can do so." Strangelv-3 says, "Why not just move on
to the next item? Also, postponing would be better than tabling" Rose/Miros
says, "i think we need to discuss it on the website or in email or
something and get it resolved, not perpetually tabling" PhilipC says,
"They're the same thing" Strangelv-3 says, "Tabling requires a vote to
remove from the table" Rose/Miros says, "yes, everything tabled gets looked
at every damn time" Rose/Miros says, "nah, we just pick it up and yack
about it" Rose/Miros says, "and table again" Strangelv-3 says, "I move to
postpone, not table" PhilipC says, "They're the same thing. But moving on
to the next agenda item" Strangelv-3 has seen votes to remove things from
teh table fail PhilipC says, "The issue of membership fees" Rose/Miros
promises to ignore the vote and pick it up AGAIN PhilipC says, "Before we
discuss this item, I wish to remind everyone once again that we will be
covering this during the brainstorm session" Rose/Miros says, "it's not so
much the issue of fees, it's the issue of getting people to rejoin" PhilipC
says, "I wish to limit discussion for five minutes. We need an actionable
item or we move on." PhilipC says, "I open the fllor" PhilipC says, "floor"
Strangelv-3 says, "Does anyone remember the rule we created to give Randall
membership when he could not afforld to do so? Our listmaster has had
authorizations removed just weeks after we confermed his willingness to
continue because he can't pay his membership fees" PhilipC says, "Point of
order" PhilipC says, "Please define listmaster" Rose/Miros says, "mike
delaney, tweeks the mailing lists" dcarson says, "manager all the email
lists" Lunadyne says, "I'm in favor of a special deal for prior members who
rejoin. Be it a 2-for-1 special, a lower rate the first year, or whatever."
Rose/Miros says, "can't go too low, or people will lapse to try to get the
lower rate" Strangelv-3 wants a higher level membership for people who can
afford to pay more Lunadyne says, "Agreed" Lunadyne says, "Not just the
lifetime level." Strangelv-3 says, "Maybe moer than just one higher level"
dcarson says, "we had taht when we first started, other then Life no one
used any of them" PhilipC says, "Personally I think our membership dues
should be comparable to the Mars Society with discounts made available to
those in financial stress, students, or seniors" dcarson says, "need a real
incentive for people to use them" Strangelv-3 says, "Which is something for
the brainstorm session" PhilipC says, "We're getting close to an action
item. Would someone like to make a motion?" Strangelv-3 says, "I move to
grant Mike Delaney a one year membership effective 17 July 2013" Scottyg
says, "We currently offer a buy 2, get one free deal. How about a 1/3 off
price for renewing? Amounts to the same money in our pocket." Strangelv-3
can't remember the specifics oof how we did this last time and throws that
out as a starting point PhilipC says, "We have a motion on the floor, is
there a second?" Lunadyne says, "Second" dcarson says, "second, Mike does a
needed job" pjbanyai says, "By the way our registration intro page still
says that if a member signs up for 20 years they are automatically updated
to lifetime membership. This is a carryover from ASI. Does this still work
or not?" PhilipC says, "All in favor of said motion, please say aye. All
opposed nay." Rose/Miros says, "aye" Strangelv-3 says, "aye" Lunadyne says,
"aye" pjbanyai says, "aye" PhilipC says, "I abstain. " dcarson says, "aye"
PhilipC says, "the ayes have it" PhilipC says, "Mike Delaney will be
updated on TeamDirector as a member for 1 year" PhilipC says, "Is there any
other old business we need to discuss?" Rose/Miros gives Strangelv her
proxy, fixing food for hubby Scottyg says, "Paul, the 20 years provision
still applies. However, Team Director doesn't handle life memberships and
someone has to manually push out their expiration dates. Since we only have
3 or 4 life members, its not a burden currently worth fixing." Strangelv-3
doesn't believe we have proxy voting, but can try to think of what Rose
might say on various discussion topics PhilipC says, "Hearing no other old
business, let's move on to the brainstorming session" PhilipC says, "I'd
like to start by asking all of you to go to:
http://www.moonsociety.org/about/vision_mission.html" pjbanyai says, "Proxy
by mail is valid." PhilipC says, "Please continue any off-topic discussion
in whisper mode or via email" PhilipC says, "If you've all gone to the
vision-mission page" PhilipC says, "part of what I'd like for us to discuss
today is whether or not this mission is still valid, or if we should update
it" PhilipC says, "possibly revise it" Strangelv-3 can't answer that
question in a sufficiently short span of time PhilipC says, "So let me ask
the first question here, are we still pursuing this mission or have we
already exceeded it?" PhilipC says, "I open the floor for discussion"
Lunadyne says, "I feel I should summarise it as TL:DR" PhilipC says,
"That's a problem. " PhilipC says, "Mission statements should be at the
heart of every organization's identity" Lunadyne says, "It's why I digest
it down to "Humans living and working on the Moon"" PhilipC says, "I
interpret our mission as getting started on the Moon and using it to launch
a space civilization" Strangelv-3 says, "We've had a fundamental problem
since about 2002, and this looks like yet another band-aid. One of the
better ones, but still a band-aid. We were designed to be an umbrella
organization. In recent months a solution has come up, but I have yet to
hear of what it's going to cost us. if this idea is acted upon it should
make it naticeabyl easier to get the rocket scientests of ASI back on
board" Strangelv-3 says, "This being to buy The Lunar Resources Company and
restart ASI under our control" Lunadyne says, "I would be willing to offer
$1 as a token amount. It seems to me that much of what TMS has now is stuff
that TMS built." Strangelv-3 says, "If we can get an amount and if it's
more than the management committee wants to spend, we might be able to try
to raise the money" PhilipC says, "After a few more questions, I will be
addressing this issue" Lunadyne says, "What exactly is it that we would be
buying?" Strangelv-3 is not the best person to try to answer that question,
especially given hat he's sleepier than he wants to admit to being right
now Strangelv-3 looks at Dana and Scotty Strangelv-3 says, "One thing we
would vely likely gain is people who dropped out after ASI went comatose"
dcarson says, "a for profit corp, with a bit of a bank account and contol
of appointing the ASI board" PhilipC says, "before we discuss any of that,
i need to ask what are the different roles TMS and ASI play?" Strangelv-3
says, "Even today we get peopleq looking for ASI" dcarson says, "just
getting ASI transfered to us would be useful and as a TLRC shareholder I'd
vote for that" Strangelv-3 says, "TMS is a 501(c)(3) and is restrained"
pjbanyai says, "The Official purpose recognized by Texas and IRS is:The
corporation is organized exclusively to conduct educational, scientific,
legal, and financial activities related to exploration and settlement of
the Moon, outer space, and other celestial bodies including, for such
purposes, the making of distributions to organizations that qualify as
exempt organizations under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code,
or the corresponding section of any future federal tax code. Any change in
this must be resubmitted. We also have stated Activities and Operational
Information in our IRS Application for Recognition of Exemption k1023."
PhilipC says, "Yes, and how is this different from ASI?" Strangelv-3 says,
"ASI is basically a trade association. It can get its hands dirtier"
Lunadyne says, "If it's something where the profits are funneled into TMS
that might be doable." Lunadyne says, "All profits." Strangelv-3 says, "The
profits of TLRC are by intent foluced on bending metal and landing
hardware" PhilipC says, "Ken, no nonprofit may receive more than 25-30% of
its income from for-profit activities" Rose/Miros says, "back, i had to
feed the hub" Strangelv-3 says, "As we would have control, we would have a
bit of a say in what they do, and would gain the bragging rights for its
acchievements" Lunadyne says, "We wouldn't be conducting the for-profit
activities. We would be 100% shareholder in the entity that is for=profit."
Rose/Miros says, "um, tlrc was in the charge by the kilobyte webhosting
business at one time" PhilipC says, "I'm pretty sure the IRS won't let us
do that" Rose/Miros points to the SimsHost Founding Site sign floating over
her head Scottyg says, "ASI is actually a non-profit organized and
registered under the laws of Alabama. But it never filed for IRS
recognition." pjbanyai says, "It is not uncommon for Non-profits to gain
control of for profit companies and othe non-profits which are defined as
more active arms of the parent company. I had some bookmarks for links
about this. After the meeting I will find them and post in the leaders
section of website" Strangelv-3 says, "SimsHost was kind of a detour off of
the MoonSims project. Is there an angrle off of that that we'd want to
continue to look into, Rose?" Rose/Miros says, "thank you pj, someone else
is finally posting on the website" Lunadyne says, "Was there ever a
commercial Moon-themed Sims thingee?" Rose/Miros says, "not really,
moonsims was a free sims site" Strangelv-3 says, "Ideally, projects like
that should have been done by a joint venture member, such as CyberTeams"
Scottyg says, "Just a group of people doing Sims and interested in the
Moon." Rose/Miros says, "and if we put stuff up that was lunar related, we
got a "living luna" graphic" Strangelv-3 says, "Although not CyberTeams
specifically" Strangelv-3 says, "A new company formed and added to the
Artemis Project" Scottyg says, "The commercial Sims activity was done by
The Lunar Resources Company." Strangelv-3 says, "If it can be brought back
to life, we'd also gain a joint venture" Rose/Miros says, "
http://www.asi.org/moonsims/updates/index.html this is the free site"
Rose/Miros says, "there's not much left of simshost" Scottyg says, "Nope.
although I have all of the code that made it run." Strangelv-3 says, "There
are also organizations such as IslandOne that were absorbed into ASI that
might be resumable" PhilipC says, "Personally I think if we try own a for
profit company, we'd be limiting our options" Strangelv-3 says, "We could
change the ownership and possibly sel part of the ownership once things are
running again=" Scottyg says, "I agree, but we can control a for profit if
we wish." PhilipC says, "I can see using a nonprofit to provide an
incubation environment for for-profit companies" Lunadyne says, "We would
have to tread carefully." Strangelv-3 says, "That's one thing the Artemis
Project definitely was: an incubator" Lunadyne says, "I.e. using ASI to
lobby politically would be no good." PhilipC says, "Heck we could
individually own our own respective for-profit companies but work together
to build a nascent industry" Strangelv-3 says, "Just note that this is the
purpose The Moon Society was created for. The work was doen before we were
created -- wve just need to find or remember or reconstruct" PhilipC says,
"The issue of using the Moon Society as an incubator is what I'd like for
us to focus on" Strangelv-3 says, "Examples of companies that were
incubated from the Artemis Project that had at least some success:
TransOrbital, Village Networking Limited, and CyberTeams" PhilipC says,
"That, and I'd like to see us implement a SMART management strategy"
PhilipC says, "SMART = Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and
Trackable" Strangelv-3 says, "_we_ are a 501(c)(3) -- it's easier for us to
do these things itdirectly" Rose/Miros says, "my phillip sez A is
agressive" PhilipC says, "With being specific, I think it is entirely
possible for us to have a physical presence on the Moon in 10 years"
Strangelv-3 says, "Also, there was a lot of overlap in membership between
these structures. It was normal for people to show up every Wednesday and
never keep track of which entity was meeting that day -- they were on all
three." PhilipC says, "12-15 at the latest" PhilipC says, "I have a whole
laundry list of what I think we can measure" PhilipC says, "And again,
inside 12-15 years is very attainable" PhilipC says, "and realistic"
Lunadyne says, "The fundamental metric is membership numbers." Strangelv-3
says, "And less wokr than it was in 1994 when this all started" PhilipC
says, "precisely" PhilipC says, "which brings us to the next topic for this
brainstorm" PhilipC says, "And this is the heart of our future as a
society" PhilipC says, "What is our value proposition to our members?"
Strangelv-3 says, "ASI's was easy: We're going back to stay; you can come
to" PhilipC says, "Why should someone join, other than because we spin a
good yarn about our dreams?" PhilipC says, "We can we offer members right
now that will allow them to feel they're involved?" Rose/Miros says, "i
make a motion that the secretary post both the agenda and the minutes on
the website, then send an email saying LOOK AT THE WEBSITE" PhilipC says,
"the agenda is my responsibility" PhilipC says, "the minutes only in
hindsight" Strangelv-3 says, "The bylaws say the annual meeting agenda is
mine and I still don't know what should be on it" Rose/Miros says, "hub sez
it's the secretary's responsibility to post the agenda" PhilipC says,
"that's to be discussed between you and the president prior to the
meeting." PhilipC says, "But let's focus here" Strangelv-3 has seen it go
both ways; tries to find it in the bylaws PhilipC says, "This is VERY
important" PhilipC says, "What do we want to offer our members to make them
want to stay?" Scottyg says, "Or to Join?" PhilipC says, "That too"
Strangelv-3 says, "If we have ASI back up and running, a chance to
participate in an effort to return to the moon" PhilipC says, "And I'll add
another weight to that question" PhilipC says, "What can we offer members
at different scales?" Lunadyne says, "I've called for members to get
involved with MMM. I've called for members to get involved with our science
projects. I've called for members to do outreach in their communities. I've
asked for membership input on the Lunar Laboratories. I've called for
members to help with the website." PhilipC says, "Will it be enough to
attract 1000 members? How about 10,000? 100,000? 500,000?" Strangelv-3
says, "Incentives? For awhile, we had copies of From the Earth to the Moon
that we were handing out. We could have handed them out at a higher
membership level" Strangelv-3 says, "But not on that scale" PhilipC says,
"If there's nothing else on the table, let's me put something on there"
pjbanyai says, "Note, we may not be able to use Artemis Magazine and
possibly even the Artemis Project as trademarks anymore. We are either a
509(a)1 or 509(a)2 public charity which means we can have a 509(a)(3)
Supporting organization." Scottyg says, "James, that sort of thing is noise
level. We're trying to get the big picture here." PhilipC says, "How about
if we offer a lunar development simulation game" PhilipC says, "Not just a
single scenario but all possible development scenarios" PhilipC says, "The
more controversy and the stronger the personalities behind each scenario
path, the better" Strangelv-3 says, "Is how we'd do it outside of our
present scope?" PhilipC says, "We can use this simulation game to settle
the question of what is truly the best path for developing space" Lunadyne
says, "Where would we get this product?" PhilipC says, "Instead of us
trying to settle through backroom debates what's the best path, and
possibly tear the society in half, we simulate it" PhilipC says, "We
develop the game ourselves, using multiple servers" PhilipC says, "If we
have a problem putting enough warm seats at the programming table, then we
shouldn't be afraid to consider outsourcing programmers from India" Scottyg
says, "I think the big question is: How do you insure that the rules built
into the simulation accurately model the real world? And of course where do
we get the resources to build such a simulation?" PhilipC says, "But with a
game like this, I think it is entirely within the realm of possiblity for
us to attract 10,000+ members within 2 years" PhilipC says, "I would
envision a two-tiered membership level. Those who only want to play the
game and those who are actively involved in the Society itself" pjbanyai
says, "Original NASA mmo plan is at
http://www.moonsociety.org/simulations/LunarExplorerMMOG.html. This was
supposed to give NSS and us a fairly large role in the game." Strangelv-3
says, "Experience comes witha price tag item: forcing peoplqe to pay to
contribute does not help with contributions of time and effort" PhilipC
says, "Those who are actively involved would form "scenario factions" that
would challenge one another with obstacles that could undermine the other
scenario" PhilipC says, "the best thinking on computer gaming nowadays is
somewhat reviled but it looks a lot like farmville or WoW" PhilipC says,
"we could charge a "small" monthly fee for the gamers... say at $5 a mo."
Lunadyne says, "Existing Moon-development games: Lunar Command, Outpost,
Moon Tycoon,." PhilipC says, "but if we have 10k gamers... that really adds
up" PhilipC says, "unlike other games, the best scenario would be rewarded
with a real world analog" Lunadyne says, "It does sound like a great ASI
incubation project." Strangelv-3 says, "Something for the Artemis Project"
Lunadyne says, "A real world analog scenario?" Rose/Miros says, "btw, a
while ago, when bill clawson was unemployed for a couple weeks,
Dimensionality, one of the companies being incubated, did some of the
ground work on a farmville type lunar game" Rose/Miros says, "this is the
president" Rose/Miros pokes at Strangelv-3. Strangelv-3 says, "ow" Lunadyne
says, "Moonville?" PhilipC says, "and unlike other games, people would be
encouraged to start up their own companies, patent new inventions, and use
them as foundational technologies in the game... technologies that could
see real VC funding" Rose/Miros says, "no, we're not zynga" Rose/Miros
says, "most of zynga's worst abuses are specifically forbidden" Strangelv-3
says, "I was'nt in charge of that specific project, thoug,h and Rose and
Mike know a lot more about the specifics tahn I do -- but not as much as
bill Clawson -- a former Moon Society director, BTW -- knows of the
specifics. I can try to find the wii page tnhough -- which I can try to
paste form" PhilipC says, "I won't pretend to be like zynga" Rose/Miros
says, "i do believe the zwinky tool bar is expressly forbidden" Strangelv-3
has never played a Zynga game and hasn't heard anything that would motivate
him to do so Rose/Miros says, "they completely missed the sweet spot"
PhilipC says, "but unlike any other game, this is one where the general
public has an opportunity to shape the future of space policy as we know
it" Rose/Miros says, "the place where people will throw in a few real world
dollars to complete a goal" Rose/Miros says, "so the goals can't be too
easy and also can't be too numerous or too complex leading to a very high
cost to finish them with dollars" Strangelv-3 points Rose to
http://andurin.dementionality.com/wiki/index.php?title=Surveyor and will
brb PhilipC says, "the main problem with this type of game are positive
externalities... namely people stealing each others ideas. hence why we
recommend players to form real companies with real patented technology"
PhilipC says, "i would envision the game to start with a questionaire of
how a player thinks we ought to develop the moon" Strangelv-3 says,
"Positive externalities are one of the main goals of Lunarpedia. Parto f
why it's public domain" Rose/Miros says, "the speed of zynga breaking a
game is increasing, they could probably break Surveyor in a week, so people
would be back playing our game quickly" PhilipC says, "after a series of
steering questions, they'd be directed to an appropriate scenario that
would allow them to prove their beliefs would work" dcarson says, "a patent
usually costs 6-10K to get" PhilipC says, "the game wouldn't give all
technology details, just enough to describe its function, and who owns
what" Rose/Miros says, "the game can be handwavy enough that you don't need
a patent" dcarson says, "I'd hope so, a patent needs detailed plans"
PhilipC says, "but it may also allow us to develop an industrial ecosystem
that we can transplant into a realworld lunar simulator" pjbanyai says,
"The original NASA MMO program would have incorporated the LunarExplorer
program which currently has a special version for the Lunar Embassy linking
lunar properties to the program. This meant that the MMO would be similar
to Secondlife with land linked to real money. If other land deeds were also
linked such as those at the Lunar Registry then a competion could be setup
with the best developed lands having better transportation links from the
official [main] hubs and possibly winning other incentives." PhilipC says,
"the main purpose of this game, as I see it, is to develop a proof of
concept for investment purposes" PhilipC says, "eventually i think we could
develop or manage a real lunar environmental simulation facility" PhilipC
says, "the best thing of all, is that such a game would by far be scalable"
PhilipC says, "it would work for a small 500 member organization or even a
500k organization" PhilipC says, "how does this sound to everyone so far?"
Lunadyne says, "It's ambitious, no question." Strangelv-3 says, "back"
PhilipC says, "hey where do we want to go again?" Rose/Miros says, "we want
to make money and attract paying members" Rose/Miros says, "that's step 1"
Rose/Miros says, "step n, we want to go to the moon for real" PhilipC says,
"bingo" Rose/Miros says, "inbetween, we want to have fun and make money"
PhilipC says, "let no one ever accuse of us of not being ambitious"
pjbanyai says, "By the way www.lunarexplorer.com has been suspended."
PhilipC says, "lol" Lunadyne says, "I wonder what Manny's up to." PhilipC
says, "unlike sci-fi, this takes place in the extreme near-term future"
Strangelv-3 says, "Just note that not all ideas we try work. Scotty is the
one tho rant on that topic, not me, though, and something I pushed throught
in 2006 is one of the things in the pile of things we didn't deliver on"
PhilipC says, "we'll be asking people to model a variety of lunar
development scenarios that take place 10 years from today" Lunadyne says,
"As I noted earlier, I've been feeling that initiatives have been stalled.
Initiatives that we have made a lot of progress on, but need to get over
the finish line." Strangelv-3 says, "What's our short list of low-hanging
fruits?" dcarson says, "I might recomend looking at the GURPS Transhuman
Space rpg books for a gameable hardish near future SF" Lunadyne says, "When
are we going to start selling Theme issues of MMM on Amazon?" Strangelv-3
looks at Ken Lunadyne says, "When are we going to get new marketing
materials?" PhilipC says, "We need to get this big picture stuff out of the
way" PhilipC says, "So that we have a direction to go to" PhilipC says, "I
think that if we have a game in place, one that leads to the development of
a real world lunar simulation facility, we can attract a very large
membership base." Strangelv-3 says, "We used to have a big picture. Peter
helped a lot in papering over it, but the hole is still there. Ken, could
you document our low-hansging fruits somewhere for reference?" Rose/Miros
says, "like on the website?" Strangelv-3 says, "We need to get back to
those" Strangelv-3 says, "Probably the video series from 7 years ago is one
of them" Rose/Miros says, "where SOMEONE wanted a collaboration area and
doesn't use" PhilipC says, "I think we can hit 10k members in 2 years"
Lunadyne says, "I'll do that. Not immediately, as I have Moon Day coming up
this weekend." PhilipC says, "Of the low hanging fruit, we can create an
educational series" Strangelv-3 says, "Oh yes something I keep forgetting:
We need a new update for our web site. " Lunadyne says, "Which reminds me -
has anyone heard from Dave or Al about the ISDC tracks?" Strangelv-3
hasn1't heard from either for awhile, and not about any videos or similar
Lunadyne says, "I need to follow up with them...after Moon Day." Lunadyne
says, "Oh, and I may be hearing about a "settling the Moon" TV
(documentary) series in the next couple of days." Strangelv-3 notes that
high definition video should be less expensive to make than the footage we
took in 2007 Strangelv-3 says, "That sounds interesting" Strangelv-3 hopes
for the best Lunadyne says, "I never did see my footage from 2007. I must
have been really hung over." Strangelv-3 says, "We need to get new copies
from Chip" PhilipC says, "So let me get us back on point here" Strangelv-3
says, "I've misplaced my discs, they were the low lesorlution time stamp
footage, and I've misplaced my discs" Strangelv-3 looks at Philip PhilipC
says, "Do you think our existing structure is capable of managing a large
influx of members?" Strangelv-3 says, "That depends on how many" Rose/Miros
says, "scotty's the person to ask, he processes payments and puts people in
teamdir" Lunadyne says, "No." PhilipC says, "If we develop a scenario
engine-game that draws in 10k members in 2 years, do you think we can
handle that" PhilipC says, "I would note that probably at around 5k
members, we should start to think about hiring staff" Strangelv-3 says,
"Here might be a reference number: whot is the size of the NSS chapter
memberships?" PhilipC says, "about 5k" Lunadyne says, "I question whether
we (TMS) can develop that. If we had pieces to start from I'd be more
comfortable, but from scratch I'm having a hard time selling myself on it."
PhilipC says, "but the NSS has become a policy wonk and has lost sight of
the prize, developing a space civilization" Scottyg says, "I think we would
have to have paid staff. But it depends a lot on how fast it ramps up."
Lunadyne says, "Chapter membership #S are unknown." Strangelv-3 says,
"MAybe lower, depending on what we can get. An executive director who's
sufficiently motivated can work wonders. if we find the right one we might
be able to get one to leap before looking, unsure if they can raise enough
money to pay for themselwes" Strangelv-3 says, "The thing about an
executive dirlecotr is money -- and if it gets too low the director doesn't
get paid. That's the way the other organization I'm with does it, and after
coasting for a year and a half we finally hired a new one." PhilipC says,
"Handling a large influx of members is what I'd like us to focus on at the
next meeting. What kind of management structures would we need to have in
place for managing a 1k, 5k, 10k, or 25k> member organization" Strangelv-3
says, "What is the best know guess for the aggregate size of NSS's chapter
memberships? I'd be happy with slightly less than a single digit of
precision" Lunadyne says, "EDs tend to get $100K+ per year." PhilipC says,
"I think we can agree that after about 3-5k members, we'll need to hire an
ED" Strangelv-3 says, "That depends on who we hire" Strangelv-3 says, "I'm
thinking of an activist, not a professional manager" Strangelv-3 says,
"Someone with management experience, but will wokr for less to work for us"
PhilipC says, "Also note that we don't have to hire an ED right out the
gate, we can hire program managers who will later be promoted into the
position" Strangelv-3 says, "Or we could do it the other wayf around"
PhilipC says, "I worked with another nonprofit that did just that"
Strangelv-3 says, "The most important role of an executive director that
I've seen is it's someone who's paid to not have to worry about a day job"
Strangelv-3 says, "Someone with time to look for the low-hanging fruits the
volunteers are unable to keep up on and do them" PhilipC says, "it also has
to deal with amount of responsibilities" Lunadyne says, "Like fundraising
to pay their salary." PhilipC says, "as we grow, we can draw in more money,
and therefore pay them better" PhilipC says, "exactly" Strangelv-3 tries to
remember twhat HEather's job is. She was hired by the previous executive
director and is still working for the party, albeit part time Scottyg says,
"With our current tools, it takes me about 30 minutes per week to do
membership processing for about 150 members per year so that's something
like 6 per hour. But because the numbers are rather low, I probably spend
mor time than is needed." PhilipC says, "we would also need staff to run a
more professional media production capability" Lunadyne says, "Presumably
at the higher membership levels we would have a membership team."
Strangelv-3 says, "Her current title is membership coordinator" PhilipC
says, "It's this process of scalability that will make all the difference.
" Scottyg says, "But in any case, for 500 per year we would need near 100
man-hours to handle the load. That's about half time for one person."
PhilipC says, "Growing too fast can be just as bad a curse as not growing
at all" Rose/Miros says, "selfish question, how long are we going? i'm
sleepy" Scottyg says, "Oops, 5000 per year." Lunadyne says, "Yeah, I need
to load the car with heavy boxes to take to the museum." PhilipC says, "I
think we've had a good brainstorming session for now" Strangelv-3 says,
"Can any one think of any motions we need?" Strangelv-3 jots something down
again ________________________________________ | | | We need a new
item/update/announcement | Strangelv-3 holds up a BIG sign: | on our web
site | |________________________________________| PhilipC says, "Let's use
the next meeting to think about scaling upwards and then developing a
proposal for the next management committee class" Strangelv-3 says, "Oh --
ash here's something ielse that's important" PhilipC says, "With that said,
does anyone have any announcements they'd like to make?" Lunadyne says,
"Got it - will do. I was procrastinating to have a good Moon Day update."
Strangelv-3 says, "Are the ballots we've sent out void, or has one of the
director candidates dropped out?" Strangelv-3 says, "We onl/y list two of
the three people identified as candidates on the ballot" Strangelv-3 says,
"Rose noticed this" PhilipC says, "When are the ballots due" Lunadyne says,
"How many have we gotten?" Strangelv-3 doesn't have that answer Strangelv-3
doesn't have that answer either Lunadyne says, "July 31 IIRC" pjbanyai
says, "I have setup Moon.Society.International@gmail.com account so we can
probably have a Moon.Society.International or MoonSocietyInternational
youtube channel, however these are a liitle long. While we can try to
regain other names, what does eveyone think would be a good channel name if
we can't have simply Moonsociety or TheMoonsociety?" Lunadyne says,
"FutureMoon. NextStepMoon. " Lunadyne says, "Objective: Moon." Lunadyne
says, "MakeMineMoon" PhilipC says, "We need to wrap this up, are there any
announcements?" Strangelv-3 says, "Lunar..." Lunadyne says, "Lunar Legacy"
Strangelv-3 says, "Just another question of what are we doing at our annual
meetingc" Lunadyne says, "Another one? Didn't we just do one?" PhilipC
says, "James and Ken, I trust you can coordinate via email outside this
meeting. " Strangelv-3 says, "that was a town hall" Strangelv-3 says, "This
is the one we're required to haev by statute" Rose/Miros says, "WEBSITE NOT
EMAIL" ___________________ | | Rose/Miros holds up a BIG sign: | WEBSITE
NOT EMAIL | |___________________| PhilipC says, "It seems that there are no
announcements. Can I have a motion to adjourn?" Rose/Miros says, "moved"
Strangelv-3 says, "second" PhilipC says, "Rose, they can post the agenda on
the website. But itmakes sense to coordinate via email" PhilipC says, "We
are now adjourned" PhilipC says, "Thank you all for coming" PhilipC says,
"I look forward to seeing you in 2 weeks" 
-- End log: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 11:30:06 pm ASI Meeting Server time --